I was perplexed by the question. What’s the difference? They explained: “Should I tiptoe and watch my manners around you or be blunt? Flirtatious or chill? Brag about my sexual conquests or talk about our feelings? When you’re sad, do I hug you and buy you ice cream or do we go grab some beers? Should I wonder if we’ll ever hook up?”
I’m not sure if I’m more appalled or confused by this mindset. I thought everyone treated their friends the same regardless of their gender identity. Is this just a fringe case of toxic masculinity, or is this really how the average cis person sees the world?
If you asking if gender determines how people interact, the answer is absolutely yes. There are so many ways this is true.
Can you explain more? I’ve been in this world a long time and I am certain that I treat all of my friends the same regardless of their gender identity - I come to every conversation as my authentic self. Are people wearing masks over their personality when interacting with people of differing genders?
Navigating society and following etiquette and social norms doesn’t invalidate being authentic. A straight man is going to interact with a woman differently than with a man, not only are the social expectations on how he interacts different, but how he internally feels in relationship to the person is different. As your friend suggested, being a man or a woman can make the difference between whether a romantic relationship is a possibility or not. Courting, flirting, etc. are authentic behaviors straight men will engage in with women that they won’t do with men.
What if it’s obvious from the get-go that a romance isn’t possible, like if you’re friends with a married woman? Do you then treat her the same as your bros, or is there still a difference?
There are differences regardless of whether there is romantic potential. I will talk about things with other men that I wouldn’t with women for many reasons. Social relationships are complex and gender does play a role in interactions, even if people aren’t consciously aware of them.
yes, the way gender plays a role is often unconscious - this is an important point
This is a new concept to me. What sort of things do you talk about with one gender but not the other, and why?
There are exceptions, of course, but generally I don’t speak with women regarding my sexual health (or sex in general), most of my mental health, or things specific to men. For the most part, they wouldn’t want to discuss these things with me either or wouldn’t have the experience to relate to it.
Definitely still a difference, courting is just one of many examples of the way gender informs social dynamics. Being married doesn’t stop a straight man from finding someone attractive or not, for example, but being a man would prevent attraction.
Not everyone is exactly the same in how they go about navigating the social reality, but yes, gender heavily influences the way people will treat you.
For example, before I transitioned I was perceived as a man and it wasn’t unusual for me to hold doors open for anyone. Now that I am seen as a women in society, men won’t let me hold doors open for them. It’s extremely unusual for women to hold a door open for a man in my society (I’m in the southeastern U.S.), and trying to do so violates the social norms because of my gender.
Thanks for the rundown. I’m starting to question if I’m just such a hardcore feminist that I don’t see gender the same as others, or if I really should have had the autism screening that my doctor recommended. Clearly there’s something different in the way my eyes see society and interactions.
Take the test if you can, either way you learn something about yourself.
Reaching out to my insurance now to find the path forward
As someone who would identify as a hardcore feminist and who has been told they’re on the spectrum countless times, I feel you, lol.
I admit my understanding of the whole gender thing is a bit analytical (and I encourage other voices to correct me).
When I was closeted and before I admitted to myself I was trans, my views probably would have been described as gender abolitionist. Honestly gender was so painful for me that I felt gender itself was the problem (and there are plenty of examples of the harm from gender norms to get lost rationalizing this way). Of course now, looking back, I was clearly suffering from gender dysphoria and I found ways to rationalize never alleviating those feelings - I developed a disdain for femininity (femmephobia) and called it feminism, for example.
Julia Serano’s books really helped me work through these issues early in transition, maybe they would help you too? Especially you might find Sexed Up helpful as that is more about the way society genders people and how that sets up expectations. Not just helpful from a trans and feminist perspective, but also from that outsider / autistic perspective, where it helps to have an explicit map explaining the implicit social norms everyone else lives by.
EDIT: by the way, autism/ADHD and gender dysphoria have a high rate of coincidence:
the G allele in STS is associated with reduced enzyme levels; this has been noted mostly in studies of ADHD (41), a condition with fivefold increased incidence of gender dysphoria (42), suggesting a possible overlap in etiology.
from this article
And that increase with ADHD is also true for people on the autism spectrum:
participants with ASD [autism spectrum disorder] were 7.59 times more likely to express gender variance; participants with ADHD were 6.64 times more likely to express gender variance
from (42)
So don’t be surprised, being trans, that you might have some neurodivergent traits too!
A person being married doesn’t make romance impossible, just unethical. Therefore, caution to avoid behaviors that could be misconstrued as flirting is still important.
Its just the way some people learn to be and have observed how others interact.
My dad has a story from the late 70s when he was working in seminars. The more conservative the area, the more often women interpreted being included and an equal as flirtation. And as my dad was married, this offended them greatly.
Your mileage will vary with each person. But what your friend was asking was how you would like to be treated, because he is now on uneven footing, and I think this was really cool of him. Even if it’s a bit sexist, it’s honest.
Are people wearing masks over their personality when interacting with people of differing genders?
Yes, the word person/persona literally means ‘mask’. Wearing different “masks” is a common human behaviour.
Do you know about racialization? Gender works in a similar way. Children are taught since early age that they need to follow different “rulesets” when interacting with boys and girls.
That’s really interesting, I didn’t know that. On deeper thought, I do act differently in the workplace than I do in a dive bar or in a museum. But I’m getting hung up on treating people differently based on their gender. It would be strange to me to speak to a female-presenting colleague differently than a male-presenting one.
Some people prefere to be treated differently. And some don’t. People in my bubble treat each other mostly equaly (except for the flirting bit I guess), but I know women that hate men swearing in their presence and men who feel awkward if you tell them about your feelings too much. I suppose you can choose from each of his question the option that suits you, no matter the gender stereotype it’s associated with.
I interact differently even within my friends of the same gender. I will match the energy of the person I am talking to. Sally may be bubbly and excited, and I will to bring the same enthusiasm. Wendy is much quieter, and we talk slower and about different things.
Sally and Wendy are going to have a lot in common compared to Tom and Kenny thanks to social conditioning. Some people will just see the similarities and say, “boy friends act this way, girl friends act this way.”
Fundamentally, there isn’t a reason I need to treat Sally or Wendy differently than each other or to Tom and Kenny, but it works out that way a lot of times.
Some of their questions are…interesting, but I think the important thing to keep in mind here is that they’re making an explicit effort to interact with you in the way you prefer, and it is probably be worth pointing out the comments that make you uncomfortable with them directly. They clearly want to make the effort to make you comfortable, so being direct with them would most likely be appreciated by them.
In regards to “is this normal?”, I will say that, as a cis person, the line between “don’t stereotype based on gender” and respecting gender identity can be quite murky and it can feel precarious to assume how someone wants to be treated after or during their transition. Everyone will have different expectations and wishes, so having discussions like this, though blunt and likely awkward, will hopefully lead to a better relationship overall.
It does sound like this friend cares about you, so I hope you’re both able to address this constructively.
Yeah people forget that different types of people exist regardless of their gender.
I’ve met men that get super offended if someone says the slightest uncouth thing. I’ve met women that get super offended if you try to censor yourself because “she’s a lady”
To me this is the perfect will smith meme “he a little confused but he got the spirit”
As a cis guy, this strikes me as exactly the opposite of toxic masculinity: he’s trying to respect your preferences as to how you want to be treated, and in order to do that he has to know what they are first.
(I suppose in the ideal world, there would be enough out trans folks around that cis people would learn how to interact correctly in childhood, but that’s not the case yet so we’ve all gotta learn somewhere.)
Also, you say in a comment that you thought he knew you because you hung out numerous times, but if he just found out you’re trans and/or just became comfortable enough to broach the subject to ask these questions, then he clearly didn’t know you as well as you think he did.
We live in a cisheteronormative society in which, yes, absolutely, the way someone’s gender is perceived impacts how people interact with them.
I (trans man) generally don’t treat my friends too differently based on gender, but there are definitely some differences between my relationships with women and my relationships with men. When I hang out with other guys, there’s a lot more “dude”, “man”, “bud” in conversations (obviously). When I hang out with women, conversations about feelings and personal issues are more common, and so are hugs/embraces. This is pretty much entirely “code switching” for me, and not a case of me imposing that this is how relationships with a certain gender should work.
I should point out, though, that this is not 100% based on gender and gender only. It’s largely about the personality, and we live in a world in which there is a strong correlation between gender identity and personality traits (see: gender roles and stereotypes), and so gender can often (but not always) act as a shorthand for that. As a counterexample, someone I know is an effeminate (cis) guy, and I’d say that our conversations and interactions feel more like the ones I’m used to with women.
Your question’s made me curious; you appear to be binary trans (please correct me if I am mistaken!) Prior to making this post and having this discussion, what had the concept of passing meant to you? Was it purely about automatically being referred to with the right pronouns and terms (son/brother/etc) without having to say anything? Or was there anything more to it?
Passing to me is about looking in the mirror and seeing my outside match my inside. That is, rugged and masculine. It is nice that people automatically call me “he” but I very often miss the way that people treated me before transitioning - they were just nicer.
People like women more than men in general, and are more comfortable interacting with women. That’s why service positions selectively hire more women and effeminate men.
I had no idea thr opposite was a thing tbh. Personally, I’ve always treated boys and girls (or men and women) differently, I assumed everyone did this ? Not deliberately -as a matter of fact I’ve only noticed rather late, probably in my late teens. I can only surmise that it’s social conditioning. Just like in your story, it became evident when I met someone who was neither obviously a man nor obviously a woman: I realized I didn’t know how to act and was completely thrown off.
Lately I have come to observe that the sexual differences I thought were deep were in fact pretty shallow, and I found myself trying to “see” men as women and conversely, in an effort to break down this conditioning. But to be frank I thought I was doing something completely original… I would never have guessed anyone else had naturally attained this ambitious goal I set for myself !It sounds like this person thinks your gender is your entire personality, and that by transitioning gender you are becoming an entirely new person. I think it’s normal that they turn to stereotypes and binaries to try and understand something they are unfamiliar with though. The “will we ever hook up” would absolutely throw me off if a friend I trusted said that, and that’s a whole thing to digest alone.
I’ll refrain from giving advice because it wasn’t asked for, but unfortunately yes. Lots of cis people need the boxes and stereotypes in order to interact with others in the “socially correct” way rather than making those determinations on a person by person basis. I think it’s part of the cisheteronorm standard that is still said quietly rather than out loud.
I left out some context as the post was getting a bit wordy already: I transitioned long ago, I “pass” incredibly well, and my friend has always known me as a (presumably) cis man. His question was coming from “I’ve never known a trans person and don’t know what I’m supposed to do.”
In that case, is the only thing stopping him from hitting on guys his identity as straight?
Yeah, I’m confused by that as well.
Honestly though, this might be the time for a “don’t make it weird bro”
I mean, I exhibit those same differences in behavior, it’s just that it’s based on the person and not their gender. Some of my friends and I flirt, knowing we don’t actually mean anything by it. Some want to hear my TMI stories and knowledge. Some would be incredibly uncomfortable with that. Some of my friends come to me with problems, wanting solutions, and some just want to talk about the problem. Some of these things are more likely to fall one way or the other based on gender, but everyone’s different and treating you in stuff like this based on your gender instead of you is wack.
I don’t know about the average cis person, but as a cis man myself I find those questions a bit unsettling, and they suggest a world view that makes me quite uncomfortable. If these attitudes go deep, this person might be hard to remain friends with.
I interpreted it entirely the opposite. I wonder which of us is closer to average?
well, we got our answer: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/20219452/12197780
Oof. 💀
I know, right!? 😬 😬 😬
I’m with you on this one, and actually am a bit ‘unsettled’ myself over the extent of OP’s melodramatic pearl clutching, tbh… All these ‘anti-woke’ people can go fuck themselves with a rake, dont get me wrong, but (unpopular opinion ahead, maybe) by that same token I certainly feel that there are more than a few people out there who go more than out of their way to look for something they can claim to be offended by… Which -spoiler alert! - isn’t helping anything! 🙃 The far right people are already so insecure they apparently are afraid the government is gonna just show up and steal their dicks or something for… reasons(?) as it is, they clearly don’t have the bandwidth to master pronoun usage at the same time and are lashing out from percieved inadequacy.
This comment spiraled out of control a bit, I’ll admit, but in my defense I got waaaay higher than I had anticipated over the course of its composition. No raegerts
I didn’t get the impression OP was necessarily offended, but they certainly thought about gender differently than their friend, and in the end the friend sounds like a misogynistic scumbag. You’re forgetting that OP has a lot of other information they didn’t or can’t provide to us, like body language, tone, etc. - so if OP is unsettled it might be for reasons we can’t see.
Not to say that there isn’t sometimes a thing that happens where people get overly sensitive or upset by something that isn’t a problem, but I don’t think that’s happening here.
Just to clarify, I meant the person that the person I replied to was replying to when I said OP, not like the OP of the thread.
sorry, I legit can’t make sense of this - the only “original poster” I can discern is the OP of this thread, Kit. Were you talking about them, or someone else?
Floofloof? The person grue replied to
ohhh, thank you - I think I get what you’re saying now :-)
Should I wonder if we’ll ever hook up?
I honestly have a hard time realizing that pan is not the default lol
I think I was more perplexed because this person knows me - we’ve hung out numerous times. Why would the label I use for my gender identity be a deciding factor in whether or not they’re interested in me sexually?
Yeah, this sounds so misogynistic. Are women just potential sexual conquests to him? Doesn’t sound like a friend I would keep, personally. Respecting your gender means he’s got to respect women, too.
That’s exactly the vibe I got and it gave me the ick.
I obviously don’t know you or your friend. As a neurodivergent cis man, amd part of the LGBTQ+ Community, I had a fair share of very awkward interactions. In many cases, people comming out / transitioning die not change my behavior around or with them, or made me ask those kind of questions. But sometimes, I really get confused. Ĺ
And ai asked the question “should I be worried we may hook up and loose our friendship”. I asked it because it happened to me with someone. We hooked up, we broke up, and lost all.
I would ask him about this question, why he thinks it is a question worth asking.
Speculation is always the worst advisor
I asked and he said that it’s because he approaches conversations with women with the intention of fuck-cum-sleep. Needless to say, the friendship is over.
Outch. Would have made the same call in this case
jesus fucking christ, wtf
this is definitely some /r/AreTheStraightsOK material
YEAH
Definitely not purely a case of toxic masculinity. Gender roles and norms exist in all cultures, even those that were matriarchal.
We can debate all day of that’s a good thing or not, but it isn’t going away any time soon.
Mind you, the examples they gave are pretty lousy ones, despite being currently a part of general existence. The things they used are part of how women and men expect to be treated, and there’s likely a majority that want those behaviors. No telling how many would want them because they genuinely prefer them, or because they’ve been trained to prefer them over time.
We all know that individuals vary, that there’s no 100% possible with what a given person wants in regards to gender related interactions. There’s just no way to exclude any of those as valid preferences either. Despite the obvious toxicity of the flirt/chill dynamic where that’s the only two options and the default presence of sex needing to be figured out as excluded or not, those things do matter in heterosexual interactions. It isn’t solely toxic masculinity and the patriarchal paradigm either, there’s an underlying question of “what are our gender norms going to be?” that exists any time there isn’t already a rigid cultural standard.
One thing I’ve noticed with friends that I’ve known before and after transition is the same confusion present here. It’s as hard or harder to learn social expectations that you didn’t pick up as you grew up than the physical experiences of transition. Part of that is that we learn a lot by going through puberty and navigating the hormonal shifts at a younger age when we’re cis.
People that transition as adults seem to run into greater difficulty absorbing all the things we’re expected to just figure out on our own during puberty. Part of learning to be a man is learning how to manage and control the behavioral aspects of testosterone. So many of the unwritten rules of being a man are driven by that need. The same is true for women, but the precise aspects differ to some degree or another (usually to a high degree).
I’m not saying any given behaviors should be a part of overall gender expectations, just saying that they exist and that means an extra layer of things that nobody seems to think of until they’re involved in transition (either by going through it, or being close to someone that is).
Being real, I was in my thirties before I figured out that the whole “will we?” question isn’t irrelevant, and can’t be totally hand waved away intellectually. Doesn’t matter what I do or believe, because there’s plenty of times it’ll arise in other people needing it answered. I had always thought that if you’re around a woman or girl that’s a friend, you just ignore the sex issue because it’ll resolve itself over time and not need addressing. But that’s not true. A lot of women need that addressed just so that they can relax around a male friend.
That’s not just because men tend to assertiveness and/or aggression in sexual matters. Women can get wrapped up in their drives too, so its usually better to have the possibility of sex and romance (together or separately) worked out early on. It isn’t like we don’t sometimes want or need sex as a human interaction without it being something more, so even if you’re both certain that romance is off the table, sex may not be, and that can come from either party, regardless of gender or orientation (I’ve been sticking to hetero interactions here because your post is about male/female interactions, but the same need to work out the issues exists with homogender friendship as well).
And none of that gets into the other aspects of gender related minefields that exist for someone transitioning. There’s a ton of them that are hard enough to figure out at all, and trying to do so when you’ve never experienced the complexity of things directly is harder. Just the nuances of how men adjust their behaviors around other men they don’t know is ridiculously complex, as one example that I’ve seen come up frequently. How do you learn all the little body language rules when you’ve never had to use them in a fluid way? It’s as hard as unlearning them when transitioning to female. Having access to hormone treatment doesn’t grant automatic understanding of such things.
All of that gets tangential to your ultimate question though. It is true that a shit ton of cis people see the world that way, and even more follow that standard because it is so engrained that you can’t just discard it all without running into trouble.
Again, that’s not about what should or shouldn’t be, it’s just an observation about how things are currently.
Is there a c/thathappened?
only if there is also a c/nothingeverhappens
There’s a world outside full of people who think differently and act differently and have different experiences to you. It’s OK.
I have screenshots if you’re doubting. Feel free to PM and I’ll send them over.
