How does the addition of just one proton change the material’s characteristics SO much??
It doesn’t, we’re just really good at identifying the differences.
Fluorine (9 protons)
- A highly reactive, poisonous, pale yellow gas
- One of the most electronegative elements
- Forms strong chemical bonds and reacts violently with many substances
- Highly dangerous and corrosive
Neon (10 protons)
- An inert noble gas
- Completely non-reactive
- Safe and stable
- Used in lighting and signs due to its stability
That’s not just perception. Same with chlorine/argon. Etc. These chemicals would have different characteristics that react very differently with the chemicals around them even if we weren’t here to identify the differences.
wait till you hear about neutrons and electrons…
Nah dude, they’re basically the same thing. Both have a composition of protons/neutrons, both undergo a phase change to a plasma state at incredibly low temperatures, both interact with other atoms via the fundemental forces, both can (hypothetically, we can’t actually fuse anything above boron for complicated reasons I’ll pretend I remember) form one another via fusion, both are actually composites formed from tossing the fundemental particles in a blender, etc.
The differences we see are, when considered within the scope of all the possible arrangements of particles and forces we could have gotten, impossibly minor.
Look, I agree with everything you said, at the most fundamental level, they’re just different arrangements of the same cosmic lego pieces. But I think that’s exactly what makes their differences so fascinating. The fact that one extra proton, a particle so tiny we can barely comprehend its scale at ~1.67x10^-27kg, can transform a violently reactive gas into something completely inert is mind blowing.
It’s like saying a single base pair mutation in DNA and the original sequence are “basically the same thing” because they’re both just nucleotides in a chain. Sure, you’re technically correct, but that tiny change can cascade into dramatically different proteins, cellular behaviors, and ultimately entire phenotypes.
The beauty is in how these tiny quantum differences cascade up into the macro world. One proton’s difference doesn’t just change numbers on a page - it’s the difference between neon lighting up our cities and fluorine eating through your lungs. Their atomic radii differ significantly, their electron configurations lead to completely different bonding behaviors, their ionization energies vary markedly, and they even interact with electromagnetic radiation in distinct ways, absorbing and emitting entirely different wavelengths of light. All because of having 1 more of something 0.84 femtometers across. That’s crazy.
Damn, you’re really good at identifying miniscule differences!
Seriously though, I was attempting to highlight how truly unremarkable these changes are when viewed from a grand enough scale. That’s not to say I dont understand, I do, and nuclear/particle physics are fields absolutely filled to the brim with things worth waxing poetic about. And when viewed from a field that deals with meta-analysis of physical laws themselves, the differences that people are excited for start to appear… pretty mundane. Every person on earth is similar yet different, but we all avoid that guy who shares his life story at the drop of a hat because, to (badly) paraphrase Syndrome, “once everything is unique, nothing is.”
The nihilist vs. absurdist meme is popular now and does seem to serve this example well - It’s not that these changes dont matter or aren’t cool, it’s that nothing matters and probably everything is arbitrary, and that is in of itself cool! It raises so many unanswered questions
that string theorists would love to tell you the answers to but no! I cast you out, you and your vile “branes”! Back! Back in your caves you slime beasts! We shall not treat your physics fanfic this day!that we just don’t even have guesses as to what could maybe possibly be the answers yet! Hell, we’re not even sure the holographic universe theory is right, but more than half the physics community is convinced enough to get published in Nature while assuming it.There’s so much wild stuff being discovered right now, I guess it’s just sad to see people hung up on physical properties that were largely solved more than 50 years ago.
We do know how things taste, sound, look, smell, feel, etc because those are all subjective concepts of perception. Without us, the physical phenomena we sense don’t do any of those things.
More nerds need to get into philosophy. Specifically CS nerds. I think there’s a tendency, when you get into programming, to start seeing the world in terms of discrete, quantifiable units and categorical rules. It’s a helpful counterbalance to also study something that uses logic to deconstruct that kind of objective physicalist assumption.
Also so much of how we talk about CS/software dev is cribbed directly from, not just real engineering, but also philosophy. Abstraction, concretisation, instantiation, etc.
I believe individuals choose the worldview that comforts/benefits one the most, and that is why programmers often think in discrete units. It helps them identify issues and handle them well. Is there a reason to introduce discomfort, when the worldview works quite well?
Counterpoint, we get enough of that shit from people writing our design specs, and then give feedback like “it needs to pop more” or “this is good, but we need it to feel more modern”.
So, discrete, quantifiable things make for an easier deliverable, thanks.
There’s a quote that I’m having trouble sourcing, but it’s basically:
Code is for humans to read, and only incidentally for computers to execute.
I think a lot of things are like that, especially when it comes to defining and organizing work. It’s less about making the perfect requirements document and more about getting everyone to think about a shared goal in a similar way.
Specifics are great because they make for solid landmarks. But abstract language is essential too, because it clues you into how you ought to navigate the terrain in between those landmarks.
And there is always space in between the specifics. If you managed to nail down every last detail in your spec, congratulations on your new hand-compiled programming language.
I just saw it quoted the other day here https://youtu.be/MWsk1h8pv2Q?t=248 but it’s unattributed so I did a search: Abelson & Sussman, “Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs” https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Programming_languages
This is why I like strongly opinionated frameworks! People get hung up on whether they agree with the opinions themselves, which is valid, but I think kinda misses the point. The great strength of opinionated frameworks is the speed with which you can get “everyone to think about a shared goal in a similar way”, to use your phrasing. They do have their problems of course and if you ask me in 5 years, maybe I feel the opposite way about it.
I also tend to like opinionated frameworks. On top of easing the onboarding process, they can also afford to have more detailed docs/support/stability because they don’t have to account for there being a million ways to do even a basic thing.
I’m sympathetic, in theory, to the downsides noted by Rich Hickey in Simple Made Easy and Uncle Bob in Architecture The Lost Years… but IRL, I can’t say I’ve ever seen a project successfully lean into those principles at any significant scale. So maybe more of an academic appreciation there.
That’s why I’m so happy that we have a UI/UX team, they can deal with the design nonsense while I’m left to logic.
they would also get that if they learned more math. eventually they tell you that a lot of concrete rules are more like conventions and assumptions that we have collectively decided are “reasonable”. don’t get me wrong, those conventions are still extremely useful. calculus, for example, has made a lot of problems way easier to solve. but it’s not like moses came down from the mountain with the fundamental theorem of calculus etched in stone. you still need to assume things in order to be able to do calculus, and the ways in which calculus is taught and understood has changed a decent amount over the years (infinitesimals to limits, riemann sums to measures, the introduction of differential forms, etc)
For real. A few times, I’ve been like “What makes you think matter is more fundamentally real than consciousness?” and received an argument that you can measure matter and make mathematical proofs about it.
And I’m just… dumbfounded by the lack of awareness that they’re essentially using a mere mention of math itself to dismiss the significance of axioms.
my experience studying math has been that if someone uses the word “mathematical” when they’re trying to argue something, then there is a decent chance they don’t really know what they’re talking about. if they did, they would probably use a more specific term or cite a theorem or proof. math is not a monolith.
your anecdote is a pretty spectacular example of that. how nice it would be if we could “mathematically prove” that ZFC is objectively true. and also how nice it would be if we could “mathematically define” what it even means for something to be “true” or “objectively true”.
the incompleteness theorems are a part of this broader point as well, since they basically say we can’t choose a perfect system that has everything we want. but still, the incompleteness theorems themselves require making assumptions. you still need to assume some axioms for them to apply, in addition to picking a set of logical rules to follow. and those logical rules aren’t set in stone either. some mathematicians don’t subscribe to the law or the excluded middle, and it makes for some interesting mathematics. for example, it lets you define an infinitesimal as something that’s basically “not not zero”, while still being different from zero.
Yep, and that goes for really nebulous things like relationships and mental health too, not just the physical world.
This sentence hit me:
seeing the world in terms of discrete, quantifiable units and categorical rules
I wonder how many past situations I could remember where I had anxiety and panic over not knowing the rules to follow in a situation. But that’s like asking the wrong question if the reality is that there are no rules, and you need more of a guiding philosophy or purpose than a rule book. For me, I think you do what you can to make the unique experience of life things better for yourself and others. We nerds do have a tendency to focus on “number go up” which has its benefits, but has to be in moderation as with everything else.
I got into building agents for an overpowered discord bot. I leard a lot about my own through process because the research papers were too hinged to be fun.
I mean this just means that it is not the objects that have those traits, it is the relation between the object and the human sensory organs that do. This is not really anti rules, just anti overly primitive rules.
“Because you have to wonder: how do the machines know what Tasty Wheat tasted like? Maybe they got it wrong. Maybe what I think Tasty Wheat tasted like actually tasted like oatmeal, or tuna fish. That makes you wonder about a lot of things. You take chicken, for example: maybe they couldn’t figure out what to make chicken taste like, which is why chicken tastes like everything.”
It’s a single-celled protein combined with synthetic aminos, vitamins and minerals. Everything the body needs.
For the unaware, this is a Quote from The Matrix, in which the character muses about how the fake reality which is the matrix might be inconsistent with actual reality but the people would never know the difference. He then goes on to explain that, to him, the steak is delicious, so he does not care.
I think you’re confusing Mouse and Cypher…?
Probably, been a long time since I saw the film.
Yeah, Mouse talks about tasty wheat at Neo’s first breakfast in the real world. Cypher is eating steak during his monologue about going back into the matrix.
nothing is real do what you want
That is a fallacious conclusion from this observation. Don’t use this philosophy as an excuse to act like an asshole.
While everyone perceives reality slightly differently, apples do have a specific light absorption and reflection spectrum.
Our limited perception of it doesn’t make it “not real”. Same is true for other senses as well.
There’s also the possibility of Boltzmann brain hallucinating things, but since there is no way to prove or disprove it, that’s still not a reason to be an asshole
In fact, if I am a brain in a vat hallucinating the world, then all the people I interact with are just aspects of myself.
So if I’m an asshole to other people, really, I’m an asshole to me.
Just a fun tidbit: The guy who proposed the math for the many worlds hypothesis, Hugh Everett, was reportedly a huge asshole (and abused his own health) because he figured that in a lot of other versions he was a swell guy.
Thank you.
But you’re not real!
Descartes proved to me that I was!
In the assumption that you are real, because you think and therefor you must exist in some form, but have limited control of your perceived reality through your actions, you should make choices that maximize your satisfaction but your longterm satisfaction is actually dependent on not being an asshole.
Therefor, our lack of provable existence does not factor into whether you should or should not be an asshole.
nothing is real do what you want
This is what they take away from it? Discussing qualia is fascinating, and natural philosophy of the mind in general is an amazing field, but if your takeaway is that nothing exists, your understanding is about as deep as a puddle
guess that’s just a wishful thinking
Physicists: spend hundreds of generations empirically proving objective science
Philosophers: yeah, well, that’s just like your opinion, man
Philosophers: It is what it is.
Physicians: We need to be a bit more specific than that. Can we measure it?
What colors can mantis shrimp even see? Having 16 different cones doesn’t mean anything if they’re all slightly different variations of green, for example.
Edit: Okay, they can see more colors that us. They can see 300 nm to 720 nm and we can see 400 nm to 700 nm.
I think your question was spot on. They have more cones but they seem worse. They also lack our ability to process the stimuli into a rich tapestry of color.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24458639/
Not sure if there’s more current info though.
Just the span of wavelengths isn’t the only thing that’s important, the spectral resolution is also important. For example, theoretically with 6 different cones we would be able to tell the difference between the mixture of red and green wavelengths vs only seeing yellow wavelengths.
Or the mixture of blue and red wavelengths vs violet wavelengths, which just happen to be at the furthest possible point from the red wavelengths. Human color perception is strange.
Are there atoms tho? Is there void?
Fancy words for “there’s something and there’s nothing”. So, yes.
:)
The term “atom” at that point was a placeholder, not a specific measurable phenomenon.
I have come to think of it as all being probability fields.
When studying a particle, one cannot know both the energy and position of that particle with certainty (Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle). When chemists think about the 3d “structure” of atoms and molecules, they represent the nucleus as a tiny little ball and the electrons as bubbles of probability: .
The nucleus itself is in constant motion as well, and compared to the size of the actual protons and neutrons, there is much more empty space - kind of like planets in a solar system. And each of these protons/neutrons is composed of tiny particles called quarks, which again are in constant motion and thus make up probability fields that we call protons and neutrons.
Yes, it’s where Janets go when they’ve not been summoned.
And that one time when she had to hide those people.
*Epistemology
Mantis Shrimp actually lack the hardware for color interpolation. So they see 12 colors, total, compared to the wide spectrum that humans see.
Well, doesn’t that change everything! How disappointing. I guess that’s why they need so many receptor types, eh. They are just brute-forcing colors at this point.
You have a source for this though? I’d love to read about it and learn more.
You need a source on my comment but you took the 12 receptor comment in the meme at face value?
You need a source on my comment
I don’t need it, I’m just curious because I thought what you said was really interesting. If you’re not willing to provide it, I guess I might find the energy to look it up some time. Probably not though.
but you took the 12 receptor comment in the meme at face value?
What do you mean face value? I’ve heard the 12 photoreceptors fact a hundred times before, but never coupled with the fact that they don’t have the interpolation capability.
I don’t really get what you’re driving at, to be honest.
Hearing things often doesn’t make it a credible statement. Peer reviewed research does.
Go study.
I believe I’ve seen it in multiple credible nature documentaries as well. Where does it end? Do I need to go and ask a fucking mantis shrimp myself how many photoreceptors it has? Maybe one sample isn’t enough. Maybe I’ll ask ten thousand of them to be statistically viable?
You’re acting like a prick, by the way. I wasn’t rude to you, but you’re being rude for no reason.
Happy New Year, bro. Maybe a resolution for you could be to meet people who first treat you with respect, with some decency back. I’m not angry with you, I’m just saying these things to you because it’s something you need to hear, to grow as a person.
All the best. ❤️
Nature documentaries don’t make things credible. Peer reviewed research does.
Do you also believe in Alpha Wolves? How about ancient aliens?
Jeeesus, dude. I tried. 😂 Some people just don’t want to hear. What a prick.
Surely they could see some color half as strong in the same place as another? Where does the difference come from?
You don’t seem to understand the bare minimum concept here. You percieve smooth transitional colors on a spectrum, mantis shrimp would see slices of colors they can recognize and large regions inbetween.
The physical eyes themselves might be perfectly capable of it, but they dont have the processing power to recognize the inputs.
The reason for their adaptation is not to improve color vision, but to percieve depth better for punching with.
Can they not see the strength of colors, only their presence? Or can they not see different colors in the same location?
Is it just that they can see the color channels separately but not combine them?
Imagine if everything you saw was one of a selection of colors. All blues are just Navy Blue. All reds and oranges are just red. They cannot tell them apart.
So it cannot tell the difference between different receptor strengths, such as bright blue vs dark blue, each only has a presence and an absence, like a 1-bit per channel quantized image?
Surely it could also see blue in the same place as it sees red, and then gain information from that even if it does not interpret that as purple?
If both of these were true than it would be able to see 2^12=4096 distinct ‘colors’ (where each is a combination of wavelengths originating from the same area)
Well yeah, that thought is important. While apples do have an objective color in the sense that physics teaches us that electromagnetic radiation with a certain frequency is more or less likely to be absorbed/reflected, we can only perceive a subjective color.
I personally define reality as any measurement that a machine (computer or robot) can take. As such, there is an objective reality. But also, most people mostly act on emotion and not based on real data.
But also, this isn’t a meme. It belongs in the philosophy or science memes community.
I personally define reality as any measurement that a machine (computer or robot) can take. As such, there is an objective reality.
Is there? How do you determine whether the machine doing the measurements is real?
The face punch method, (not a personal attack just a rather crude if effective philisophical tool) aka if I repeatedly punch you in the face you have a hard time continuing to argue that my fist is not real, or at the very least real enough for practical purposes. Personal involvment makes the situation a lot less abstract.
Oh, I never argued that fist are not a good way to determine reality, but calling your fist a machine is cringe.
Technically the person being punched is the machine in this situation, the fist is the thing being measured.
You are the only thing that’s real in this world. YOU’RE IN A COMA.WAKE UP!
The lights flickered when I read this. I think that means I’m the real one and they upped my sedative to keep me stuck here. Oh well. Maybe I’ll get fun dreams out of it tonight, at least.
Quick Guys… he’s onto us!
Wait, you guys are distinct consciousnesses? I though we were all just aspects of his
We are. Just let em keep thinking it’s the real world. This comment is deep enough they’ll never see it.
Wake up, Link!
omg qualia
omg u genius
I’m getting old and bitter.
We gotta preserve our curiosity and childish naivite. Imagine yourself a professor sharing a beauty of math – the good ones are always as excited to explain it, as the first time they’ve felt it ^^
That’s ridiculous. Our perspection is fully acceptable as proof of reality. The fact is that as our perception is limited, we are limited in our knowledge of the reality of things. Somehow mantis have an access to the reality of things we don’t have and that dog don’t have. And through their sense of hearing dogs have an access to the reality we don’t have.