“We should defederate from everything which does not agree with my .world view and create a giant centralized echo chamber”!
Why the fuck does every .world user suddenly want Lemmy to be Reddit?
Another day of .world reddit migrants thinking de-federating or boycotting .ml will change literally anything.
I don’t think the meme makes sense. The ml users don’t seem to care how much other content is out there. They still participate as much as they’d like.
Free speechers on .world can’t handle interacting with any dissenting opinions to the left of the Bush Administration.
ml makes sense on the fediverse. That’s kind of the whole point. Same with Linux.
https://sh.itjust.works/c/meanwhileongrad
Here is a nice community that keeps track of their bullshit
Im already blocked on many of their subs. so I’m boycotting and I don’t have a choice
The irony of a community promoting socialism while also instabanning anyone for the slightest wiff of criticism is just chef’s kiss peak representation of why their system is doomed.
If you can’t withstand the slightest nudge of criticism how are you even going to attempt to provide a governance system based on any kind of economic directive? If Marx could see what you guys have become he’d personally wipe his ass with your lame ml instance
I sounded like you until I went offline and learned about Anarchism, anarcha-communism, intersectionality, Mutualism and Solidarity Economies. You might get your feelings hurt by online ML’s, but that’s not the real world. I dont agree much or even at all with some ML’s, and others I date. And I give less than zero fucks about what any .world neolib has to say about anything, given how much their system more than anything else has colonized and raped the planet and her peoples.
I’m all for anarcho-communism. I studied it in college. I don’t know what the execution looks like though in practice but I find it appealing.
🫶 In practice, every locality people are being the rescue workers to their neighbors Whenever and whereever Corporate & State institutions inevitably give way to their own weight and parasitism, the darker the times, the brighter folks shine. It isnt always intentional solidarity (rural townfolk often embody the practices as a matter of survival and culture, diverse as any peoples), and I’m always leery of calling things “natural”…but I do believe people have a tendency to want to help one another.
Local Mutual Aid organizations, and Encouraging anti-authoritarian parenting methods, are the two things we can do to drastically reduce violence in our society
“Practicing mutual aid is the surest means for giving each other and to all the greatest safety, the best guarantee of existence and progress, bodily, intellectually and morally.” Mutual Aid By Pëtr Kropotkin https://thereitis.org/kropotkins-mutual-aid/ https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-mutual-aid-a-factor-of-evolution https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/anarcho-mutual-aid-an-introduction-and-evaluation
“The structures of our state economies are going to matter in terms of protecting democracies, and by that I mean if you look at economies that were based in the kind of small producer economies like New England was vs states like the South and the American West that were always built on the idea of very high capital using extractive methods to get resources out of the land either cotton or mining or oil or water or agri business, those economies always depend on a few people with a lot of money, and then a whole bunch of people who are poor and doing the work for those Rich guys – and that I’m not sure is compatible in terms of governance without addressing the reality that you know if people have more of a foothold in their own communities, they are then more likely to support the kinds of legislation that Community [Education, Healthcare, …] and that may be the future of democracy, if not a national democracy"
https://youtu.be/D7cKOaBdFWo?t=2139 Heather Cox Richardson, professor of American history On The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart on Trump’s Win and What’s Next
Our resulting interactions may seem chaotic and illegible to authority, but it is through that seeming chaos that vastly complex, horizontal, and resilient practices of learning, cooperation, and reciprocity have historically arisen. https://youtu.be/qkN_nQPpeSU Mutualism: What Anarchy Needs By Andrewism
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/jp3q4p/comment/gbesw1p/
About preventing crime, the short version is that it starts in the home.
Much violent crime can be traced back to cultural factors. Violent crime, such as murder, would probably decrease dramatically in an anarchist society because most of its causes — poverty, televised glorification of violence, prisons and police, warfare, sexism, and the normalization of individualistic and anti-social behaviors — would disappear or decrease.
The differences between two Zapotec communities illustrates that peace is a choice. The Zapotec are a sedentary agrarian indigenous nation living on land that is now claimed by the state of Mexico. One Zapotec community, La Paz, has a yearly homicide rate of 3.4/100,000. A neighboring Zapotec community has the much higher homicide rate of 18.1/100,000. What social attributes go along with the more peaceful way of life? Unlike their more violent neighbors, the La Paz Zapotec do not beat children; accordingly, children see less violence and use less violence in their play. Similarly, wife-beating is rare and not considered acceptable; women are considered equal to men, and enjoy an autonomous economic activity that is important to the life of the community so they are not dependent on men. Regarding child-rearing, the implications of this particular comparison are corroborated by at least one cross-cultural study on socialization, which found that warm, affectionate socialization techniques correlate with low levels of conflict in society.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
As for the re-emergence of hierarchies, I think that the notion of anarchism is essentially ‘checks and balances’ turned up to 11. You get to a society that’s an ecosystem of fluid social relationships, and an anti-authoritarian culture which makes it impossible in a million ways for anyone to accumulate power. If we could get there, I think it would be more robust than current liberal democracy, where the branches of government can cooperate and you need buy-in from less people to enable power to be accumulated.
IMO, good anarchist praxis is to 1) encourage and popularize anti-authoritarian parenting methods and 2) build strong community groups and mutual aid networks.
Seems like the ultimate nature of leftist ideology is that there are too many cooks in the kitchen, and everyone has a slightly differing philosophy that they refuse to budge on. So they fight eachother instead of the existential fascist threat.
Leftists infighting! That’s crazy!
It’s because socialism does not stand up to outside pressures. It always turns towards benevolent totalitarianism as a method of defending itself from bad actors.
“benevolent”
Well yeah, implementation may vary with dictators.
We should leave the m federated on most instances as a honeypot for them. This way they don’t join other instances.
It’s like when you give a kid a video game controller without batteries.
I like the idea of growing non-ml community, however, I wish larger instances do not block ML. Otherwise, they would just move to lemmy.ee or lemmy.one, just like how they moved from hexbear and grad to ml.
It is great tankies got their own place where they can be happy, but I really don’t want to interact with them. I am emotional about issues they engage in, and emotional me is usually not the nicest version of myself.
Social media is one of the few ways I can relax for couple hours per week outside of my job, and I really don’t want my social media experience to go full investigative journalism.
They moved from hexbear? I thought .ml had got worse! I wish my instance would defederate from them, but it seemed so hard for them to do that from HB.
Tbf, many of the users already had accounts on both, but yeah since “no means yes” to them, when HB got defederated from they simply switched to whatever would allow them to continue their harassment campaigns. Lemmygrad.ml users say the same as well.
So if ML ever were to be defederated with, from let’s say LW (Lemmy.World), they would continue forward with LW accounts rather than take the strong “suggestion” that they not.
That’s why I prefer the approach that PieFed is testing out: not outright blocking it but placing an icon next to users that e.g. are brand-new accounts, or a different icon for those who have more downvotes than upvotes.
Hexbear mods tolerate (and sometimes encourage) the worst behaviors of their user base, which is why instances defederate from hexbear.
When those users join other instances one of two things happens:
- the mod team does their job, forcing those users to tone down their behavior or get banned.
- the instances goes to shit and other instances defederate from them.
As long as you stick to a decent instance it’s eventually a self correcting problem. You can also block instances yourself in your account settings on lemmy.
Yup. Fwiw, PieFed.social has actually defederated from hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml, so the approach I mentioned is more for overall instances like Lemmy.ml.
Although instance blocking does very little - only muting communities from that instance, but the users can still reply to you, generating notifications when they do, and they can vote and thereby influence the visibility of your content (especially impactful when it is first starting out in a larger community and even 1-2 downvotes can prevent it from being seen by many).
PieFed, along with the Lemmy apps Sync and Connect, and the Lemmy instances lemmy.cafe and Tesseract on dubvee.org allow for true blocking of all users from lemmy.ml (the latter two requiring admin support but they have chosen to defederate from all of the big 3, and they are the only instances to have done so, thus earned quite the distinction).
lemm.ee is estonian so i think they’d have a harder time there
Can someone inform me about what’s wrong with lemmy.ml?
Their users often argue for authoritarian regimes and deny genocides.
The ml stands for Marxist-Leninist, and the admins are tankies
oh, please not this shit again
ever asked a lemmy.ml admin/mod whether they’re pro-Russian or not? You’ll notice you’ll never get them to answer, but they’ll get mad as fuck and start spewing all sorts of unrelated garbage, while refusing to answer a simple yes or no question.
The ridiculous thing is it would be so easy to lie about it, but Russians don’t even jokingly want to write that they’re not pro-Russian so as to not “accidentally fall out of a window”.
I feel u. Inter-instance wars are cringe asf🤦
Big agree, I really wish people from ml and hex would stop brigading communities they don’t like
Real shit how the fuck are people gonna claim hex is trans friendly after how they acted on 196@blahaj?
What happened with blahaj’s 196?
Because Hex says they’re the most trans-friendly because “don’t be transphobic” is in the rules so it must be true.
They are tankies
I’m confused. What are you saying? That word is thrown around against socialists. Tankies is often used to shut someone down and ignore what they’re saying no matter how correct it is, or how little it has to do with Marxism.
Socialism is not a problem.
Hell. Communism is not a problem.
Implementation of communism and the defense of their (supposed!) Implementors is the problem.
Tankies defend russia, a nazi state. While showing slurs at anyone in the western world. And calling them a nazi.
Tankies blindly salivate at what China is doing. Always explaining every horrific thing that had happened as a necessity. Then throwing slurs at anyone that disagrees. And banned when their logic is dismantled.
Tankies are defending NK. On lemmy disinfo nort korea normal people started on lemmy, precisely when they sent shells to russia.
Probably because Marxism is an inherently flawed political system, and every country that has ever attempted it has quickly become a hellhole.
I am thinking about tanks, explain.
The iconic Tiananmen square “Tank man” photo, where one guy stands in front of a column of tanks on their way to slaughter pro-democracy protesters, briefly stopping them. Tankies are lunatics that wish for authoritarian communism and so unironically support the tanks running him over.
Not the origin of the word.
This dates back to Hungarian revolution in 1956 and tanks being deployed by USSR.
Lmao “running him over?” The video shows him walking away completely unscathed, after they let him into the tank to talk. The tanks were also leaving the square, not entering it. That’s also not where the term comes from.
Libs will do literally zero research about something they build their entire identity around
Where the fuck do you libs get your misinformation from?
That’s not where the term comes from.
It do be facts tho:-D
Sure. They’re not far enough to the right for some of .world’s centrists, who are very upset that some people from .ml are outspoken opponents of genocide. And as such, they have for the third time designated an instance to be the “tankie instance” that they desperately want .world to defederate from. .world’s centrists will continue this until they have convinced the admins to defederate from .ml, at which point they will once again find a new instance to designate as “tankies” and start the pressure to remove it.
They consider .world’s neoliberalism to be the leftmost acceptable boundary of political thought, and will do anything to limit the discussion accordingly.
Nah im just not a big fan of anyone who simps for putin and the taliban, it’s really that simple. If they weren’t a bunch of tankie edgelords I’d honestly consider making a hex account, some communities there are neat but not worth having to see all that shit lol
Have you already decided what the next “tankie instance” is gonna be?
I hate liberals exactly as much as you do, if not more. That doesn’t mean I have to stand by people trying to justify homes and children being stolen from Ukraine, or how China actually isn’t doing any genocide, or how Taliban Good bc they fight ISIS and don’t like the US
I hate liberals exactly as much as you do, if not more.
Do they not support Netanyahu’s genocide stridently enough for your liking?
Why the fuck are you assuming all this shit about me xD I hate Putin and I hate Biden, they both do a bunch of genocide, why do you assume I’m not 100% on your side? I very much am unless you think Putin is cool and based and doing good things in Ukraine
You’re living rent free in my head rn, it’s genuinely bewildering that you somehow think i support zionism or some shit. I didn’t get called a trump supporter by a bunch of l*bs just so other leftists can baselessly accuse me of supporting Israel. The fuck is your deal? You think someone can’t dislike both Israel AND Russia? Seriously please explain this, I’m at a loss for fucking words as to how hating a government that wants me dead means I support murdering children in Gaza, I’m kinda seething about it tbh
You’re living rent free in my head rn
Yes, I can tell because you’re so angry that you’re leaving multiple unhinged replies to single comments.
The fuck is your deal?
My deal is that I don’t think that the hatred for ml is rooted in anything having to do with Russia. I think it’s because centrists want anyone to their left (and only their left) to be silenced.
I have literally spent the last like 6 months getting banned from .world communities for disagreeing with liberals about the genocide in Gaza, if you missed all that that’s on you. Don’t assume I’m a libt4rd just bc I don’t jack off to a pinup Putin on my wall
I haven’t seen any other instances where the majority of users simp for putin and the taliban, so nope :3
That’s what lemmy’s centrists said when the last two instances got defederated.
If the last two you’re referring to are grad and hex, good riddance :3 I’d rather not be seeing blatant Stalin or North Korea apologia in my communities
So what’s the next one? As long as world isn’t the leftmost instance, there will be a next one. Is it gonna be .ee? midwest.social?
Hello. Can I please make my internet experience both echoier and chamberier than it already is because it makes me sad when I encounter someone online who has different thoughts to me.
I too would prefer an Internet flooded with
different thoughtsbad faith trolls.Like .ml admins cracking down on people suggesting that Mao’s “Great Leap Forward” was catastrophe because it forced a political will ignorant of economic reality on a society violently robbed of the ability to resist, even terrorised into meeting their quotas at any cost? Or the fact that purging and suppressing all dissidents in the first place was cruel and authoritarian, a brutal abuse of power of the same kind as Stalin’s and (in this one aspect, at least) Hitler’s?
I’m a leftist to the bone, I recognise that a revolution without bloodshed wouldn’t have been possible at the time (and maybe never will be) and that a hard hand forcing fundamental changes to the political and educational system may well be required, but .ml has a well-known Tankie problem and they’re all too eager to follow in the steps of the boots they so love to lick.
Good point, that’s why they ban you on their instance when you write a counter argument.
That’s another reason of becoming independent.
i dont watch shows i know i wont like on netflix. guess im in a echo chamber there too.
Sure, just spend all your time on lemmy.ml and that’s exactly what you’ll get.
Yeah do this,
So after we can finally talk about mods on LW, being pro Israel and moderating comments against IDF.Oh ? That will not happen ? 😱
Something about .ml and MLs in general is that they really just aren’t that large a group. If we want larger communities, Reddit is still much bigger than Lemmy. If we want a flawed ally in politics, progressive liberals outnumber Leninists and are far less likely to deliberately betray us. (That’s why MLs always equate Liberalism with fascism; if people can ally with Liberals MLs have basically nothing they can bring to a coalition, and so they can’t seize power.)
Unless you are a diehard right-winger, Liberals will always be more likely to betray you than anyone on the left. The causality is backwards here, liberals will always side with fascists over the left, thus they are identified as moderate-fascists. Just like how the Democrats want nothing more than to just be polite Republicans.
anyone on the left
Tankies aren’t leftists. Even assuming your statement is true, it doesn’t matter.
liberals will always side with fascists over the left
Spanish Civil War.
thus they are identified as moderate-fascists
That’s not how being a political ally works. That’s just such a stupid take.
yes they are, Tankie has become so abused and meaningless as now only means anything to the left of Dick Cheney or not going along with US foreign policy.
Spanish Civil War, where the Soviet Union was the only foreign power to give large amounts of aid to the Republicans and France and Britain sat out, and US oil and other business interests backed Franco. Where there were divisions over tactics and priorities but where communists fought with the Republicans, and it is largely after the defeat and popularizers like Orwell that a stabbed in the back myths about communists came to prominence. Yes, the liberals were not a complete monolith, so there were some liberals with the Republicans.
Also, in an underdeveloped, still mostly feudal society, liberalism can still be a progressive force.
I am being short and glib since I was just responding to an epically dumb post. but if you want to know how fascism is a necessary outgrowth of liberalism and the need to protect and serve capitalism leads liberalism towards fascism in crisis.
https://www.amazon.com/Apprentices-Sorcerer-Tradition-Critical-Sciences/dp/1608462021
Spanish Civil War, where the Soviet Union
Purged the Anarchists, yes. That’s actually the biggest example of why MLs should literally never be trusted more than liberals.
Edit: actually, why the fuck am I even continuing this discourse? You’re obviously a lying piece of shit. Blocked.
Purged the Anarchists? No you are the lying disingenuous person here.
Edit: proving the point, hatred over “tankies” is just that you don’t want your own positions or viewpoints challenged or questioned
Famously loyal and trustworthy liberals will never deliberately betray you lmao. Just hope they never find out if you have to break a law the fascists draw up to protect yourself or others 🚔🚔🚔
And hope that you’re not part of whichever group they’re throwing under the bus to appease the fascists either.
Liberals are trustworthy in the sense that whatever progressive policies they are capable of enacting will be done so with the assurance that grandma’s access to medication will not be impeded.
Communists are trustworthy in the sense that they absolutely intend to burn everything down to reshape the world in their image, and no sacrifice made in accomplishing that is too great.
Kind of obvious why people support a coalition with liberals more, huh?
If we want a flawed ally in politics, progressive liberals outnumber Leninists and are far less likely to deliberately betray us.
Who are ‘you’ in this equation? A boat dealership owner?
Pretty much anyone on the left.
Note: Tankies aren’t leftists.
Note 2: MLs are tankies.
Never leave your mind palace. You’re the smartest person alive. You can write political theory completely on your own without ever looking out at the outside world just in your own head. It’s always perfect. You never have to define terms. You never have to explain mechanisms. And don’t you dare ever expose it to danger. Stay pithy my friend.
your “boycott” was already happening naturally because (ayk) lemmy.ml’s mods are insufferable
We need to call on more servers to defederate with lemmy.ml if we want more people to join the platform, I dont want my friends’ first experience of the platform to be a tankie post.
100% of the people that I’ve recommended Lemmy to have admonished me for even so much as having mentioned it, citing the extremist rhetoric that calls for violent upheaval of all capitalist systems in the Western world.
If I do a Google search (yuck I know), Lemmy.ml is the 4th hit, and the top hit for an actual instance. On it, the default view shows only Local posts so… yup, that’s what a day-1 noob would see, is that instance making fun of capitalism especially the USA.
From the actual top instance, Lemmy.World, those posts make up a significantly smaller percentage of the feed, but how would people know that? And they aren’t nothing either.
Also, blocking an instance from Lemmy does very little to curb the onslaught of toxicity from it: that merely mutes the communities hosted there, whereas the users are still free to harass you, triggering notifications, vote to influence the visibility of your content, etc. I was browsing All and made the mistake of replying to a comment in ChapoTrapHouse@hexbear.net one day, and then did that again in lemmygrad.ml, and each time received replies for WEEKS and WEEKS afterwards. I almost quit the fediverse entirely:-(. Browsing from All, how was I supposed to know what those communities, or instances, were all about - was that truly “my” fault for being ignorant? Either way, I almost left, so I understand why none of the irl people I mention Lemmy to will stay either.
The people arguing against defederation are ignoring how users can be harassed here against their consent, and since no other alternatives are being made available on Lemmy to deal with the situation, defederation remains as the only option left.
(Side-note: PieFed does offer several intriguing alternatives, including showing the sidebar text below every post so that someone knows what the community standards are, even arriving at the post from All rather than going through the community page first, and labelling certain instances with special text, e.g. for Beehaw it says:
This post is hosted on beehaw.org which has higher standards of behaviour than most places. Be nice.
with that link to the exact text offered by the instance admins describing their alternative and unusual moderation practices in their own words; and another is in labelling users to allow democratization of moderation rather than a binary remove/retain decision - although while all of these experimental features are awesome, PieFed’s UI is quite a bit behind Lemmy’s so not quite ready for the masses.)
A hexbear user “called me out” in chapotraphouse for “transphobia” for a comment I made pointing out how insane it is that the hexbear team was calling the admin/mods of blahaj.zone “transphobic” – the admin and most of the mod team are actual trans people.
So I replied to the callout by saying I’m a landlord (I’m not) and asking how much I should charge for rent as a “card carrying leftist.” Replied to a few responses about how I’m a one of the good landlords and providing an essential service at a reasonable price.
My idea was to bait the worst offenders, and it worked. I waited for the replies to roll in, then blocked every single user that commented on that post. Anyone that DMed me about it got blocked too. A couple weeks later I blocked the hexbear and lemmygrad instances in my user settings.
It worked great and I haven’t had many issues since.
Haha, but I do note some problems with that approach. For one, it helps only you, leaving new users to have to repeat your success one by one. New users mostly in my experience won’t stick around long enough to even want to do so, and rather 100% of the people I’ve told have turned away from Lemmy in disgust.
For another, they’ll simply swap accounts and be back at it again. They proudly mention such inside the safety of their home instances - one person on lemmygrad.ml even mentioned that they will be building an app specifically for the purpose of using alts to avoid such blocks and defederations. No really means yes to them.
If anyone is curious, see e.g. the people from the Lemmy.ml instance talking in https://sh.itjust.works/post/26892196. I for one found it hilarious when they kept saying to hit up their DMs (bc their arguments could not stand the light of public inquiry and they knew it?:-P), then when I pointed that out, claimed that they had never done so and asked for proof - like I couldn’t read it happening within the very same post. But I get it, many people won’t bother to read or investigate anything at all, so those tricks really would work on a lazy reader i.e. an average Redditor. Case in point, the recent USA election thinking that Trump’s tariffs will somehow boost the economy, rather than tank it as happened during COVID where supply lines were so dramatically affected (which tbf would have happened anyway, but still the response was pretty lackluster and could have mitigated much of that if even minimal efforts had been expended).
I’d rather have .ml scaring shitlibs away while they stay on block, best of both worlds.
shitlib
tankie
