- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
- world@lemmy.world
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Tldr, the headline makes it sound as if Germany is outright refusing to arrest Netanyahu right now. That headline is clickbait and only partially right:
- 1 German government spokesperson gave a muddied non-response, questioning the authority of the ICC
- There is no Netanyahu or Gallant visit planned
- The current German government is on its way out (although the likelihood of a harder stance on Israel under a new government is slim)
Germany. You NEED to arrest him BECAUSE of the nazi history. Never again means never again. Not arresting him means now you’re accountable for 2 genocides.
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As a former colonial power and during WWII, Germans committed at least 2 genocides.
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There is a major difference between committing a genocide and watching/minorly aiding another nation committing a genocide. I’d argue that German influence on Israeli behavior is minor—but that’s admittedly conjecture.
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Around 70% of the German populace are currently against delivering weapons to Israel (according to Körber Foundation). There’s a disconnect between people and government at times.
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No I’m not. And if I was, I would still stand by it. Just because the US gvt is trash doesn’t mean we can’t hope for other countries to do what is right.
My mistake. I’ve seen you frequently comment on US government posts and assumed incorrectly.
No worries
Here a less sensationalist headline and more nuanced article:
DW is run by the German government to further the image of Germany abroad.
The mere fact that the government refuses to acknowledge the ICCs competence to issue the warrant and the obligation to enforce it as a member state, instead saying it needs to examine first, is an attack on the court.
When pressed on the matter in todays press conference they said the ICCs jurisdiction to be " not uncontested" despite the ICC having ruled this in 2021. And stating Germanys historical responsibility and calling arrests “hypothetical” and “difficult to imagine” show a warped understanding of what courts and laws are.
There is no exception. There is no individual alteration by a state. The orders of the court are to be respected and enforced if possible.
This is an “only yes means yes” kind of situation.
Be that as it may, the headline with its convenient won’t is clickbait. Not only is the current German government on its way out, there is also no planned Netanyahu visit, and the answer given was as muddied as possible.
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Wanting to uphold international law and clearly supporting the institutions of international law is terrorism now?
Wanting war crimes to be prevented and punished is terrorism now?
Not wanting millions of people to be starved, ethnically cleansed or murdered is terrorism now?
You’re reading that “examinate” in a very specific way. Baerbock says:
“We abide by the law at the national, European, and international level,” she said. “And that is why we are now examining exactly what this means for us in terms of its international application.”
She didn’t say “we’ll examine whether we’re bound to arrest him”, in fact she implicitly said the opposite (“we abide by law”) but “we are examining what it means for us”. As in: They’re looking into how to tell the Israelis that nope, Netanyahu better not come over because the government can’t give him diplomatic immunity when the courts would rather have him arrested. If Netanyahu wants to he could make a scene out of that and how to deal with that kind of situation is, well, what diplomats get paid for. What’s for sure is that Germany won’t spring a trap on him, saying he can come but then arresting him.
Ideally, Israel will extradite him once he’s out of office, or just plainly try him themselves. How to tell the Israelis that that’s indeed the best move they could make (not the left they would happily string up Bibi themselves but people like Gantz) is another thing worth examination.
Diring the press conference yesterday the government speaker Hebestreit said that an “examination” is necessary as the jurisdiction of the ICC would be “not uncontested” despite this having been discussed and ruled by the court in 2021. When asked what Germany did in those three years he said they havent declared to recognise that ruling hence now they have to examine…
Here is the conference to watch. The arrest warrants come up at around minute 4
When asked what Germany did in those three years he said they havent declared to recognise that ruling hence now they have to examine…
Yes. They have to examine exactly how that intersects with German law and what procedure will have to be adhered to.
If you watched that conference you might’ve noticed that they were very clear about Germany sticking to the ICC statutes and the rule of law, while completely avoiding talking about that might mean in concrete terms regarding Netanyahu. That means “Yes we’d arrest him if he’s stupid enough to come here which is the reason he won’t also please stop asking we don’t want any more of a diplomatic headache on a tightrope”.
What about “Germany considers ICC rulings binding” did you not understand. They said it loud and clear. Contrast that to, say, the US, where Biden is on record saying that the ICC lost its marbles (or something to that effect).
That is not what they said. They have questioned the jurisdiction of the ICC, explivtly saying that they didnt make any comment towards acknowledging it since the ruling in 2021.
There is also no procedural problem that would have to be solved. If he is on German soil police arrests him and he gets extradited to the Netherlands. There is well established procedures in regards to international arrest warrents for normal criminals. It is a farce.
Saying they are among the greatest supporter of the court doesnt mean shit, if they cannot directly say that they will uphold a specific ruling.
And the specific ruling is extraordinarily clear. If Netanyahu, Gallant or Deif (if he is still alive) are within German jurisdictiom they have to be arrested and handed over to the ICC.
There is no hypotheticals or ambiguity. Saying there is any and denying to explicitly state upholding this ruling by executing the warrants is denial of it.
And it is a very strong oppositiom to the court, contrary to what the spokespeople claim.
They have questioned the jurisdiction of the ICC, explivtly saying that they didnt make any comment towards acknowledging it since the ruling in 2021
Yes because to comment on it they would first have to examine it. Which they didn’t do yet because if they did then the journalists would’ve asked about the results and waffling would have become harder.
Saying they are among the greatest supporter of the court doesnt mean shit, if they cannot directly say that they will uphold a specific ruling.
That’s not how Germany works. Germany ratified the ICC treaty, and the government is bound by law. There’s no legal wiggle room, it is literally not up to the government whether Netanyahu gets arrested should he set foot on German soil, it’s a decision of the courts, which will follow the law.
The government spokespeople made it abundantly, repeatedly, clear, that Germany sticks to the ICC treaty and the rule of law. The rest they don’t want to talk about because it’s a) hypothetical, Netanyahu won’t visit Germany and b) a diplomatic headache.
It is not a matter of a German court to do the arrest. It is a matter of the Police, which is part of the executive branch and hence under the government.
I would be inclined to say that I have difficulty imagining that we would make arrests in Germany on this basis.
So a nice way of saying that Germany is not going to arrest him.
A Murdoch owned paper, I cringe everytime people share the telegraph
Germany, you are not a nazi if you arrest a genocidal maniac. By arresting him you are proving you are not a nazi.
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What? Germany neither created Israel (although German politics definitely did have a major influence) nor gave Netanyahu power (zero influence on that).
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Hitler certainly was certainly not the first person to hold a supremacist mindset or to enforce it with military power/cruelty. Your argumentation is, frankly, hogwash.
(Also—deleted for legal reasons. Please cut out these comparisons on this forum.)
It’s their choice, but by not arresting him, they are weakening the international rule of law for everyone and basically giving dictators worldwide arguments to use when the rule of international law turns of them.
I hope it’s worth it, for whatever misguided mission Germany is on about. We’ll just be waiting for the apologies to the victims of this other genocide 30-40 years from now, for another “dark past” of Germany, and hope there won’t be an abrupt overcorrection to helping the other side perpetrate a genocide, since, as we are seeing, Germany is not solid on sensible middle terms. It is possible to both support Judaism and not support genocide simultaneously.
Hell, it would even be possible to support an Israeli state and protect a Palestinian state if world leaders had half a spine.
There is a difference between aiding and committing genocide. So the more likely outcome is that Germany looses its special relationship with Israel. Especially if the US looses its.
Also lets be real. The phrasing they used was that it is difficult to imagine an arrest of Netanyahu in Germany. That can be easily had by him not traveling to Germany.
It is possible to both support Judaism and not support genocide simultaneously.
The world is constantly proving for one year now that it is indeed not possible to have a nuanced view.
You can’t criticise a single thing about Israel’s government without people losing their mind and cursing you genocidal anti-semitism. Neither can you even mention Palestinians dying without every nazi and their grandma coming to cheer for you.
Nuanced opinions died with nuanced and informed media years ago. Now it only about narratives, loud screaming and who can act the most outraged. Welcome to moron’s tribalism in a post-factual world.
Sounds like what Nazi would do.
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