If the internet has a future, it’s on the Fediverse. We work around capitalism to avoid enshittification, or we let it defer our future further.
In the meantime, the Fediverse needs to get shiny and intuitive. The sign that something is cumbersome and hard to use is people saying “it’s not that bad”.
People may disagree with how BlueSky is organized and architected, but I get why they decided to do what they did. User experience.
Their architectural decisions mean that people don’t have to worry about instances confusing people, and the org structure means is easy to staff a proper dedicated experience team that can be working, planning, and testing before big expensive decisions are committed to code.
Friendship ended with Mastodon
My new best friend is Bluesky
why the fuck does no one change the trashass looking shadowed white impact font default text treatment on the meme generator
Readability > style
That takes effort and would invalidate it as a shitpost.
Mastodon may or may not be good (I don’t use it), but the fact that it segments off users into different groups means it will never be a twitter replacement. The fact that twitter is essentially “public” and all sorts of people from different areas interact was basically the whole point of it.
Bluesky seems pretty nice so far and it has real momentum. Mastodon seems more along the lines of what Google+ turned into.
Mastodon doesn’t silo its users, that’s what federation is for. Everything you post on the public timeline is essentially public for everyone that’s on a federated instance that hasn’t gotten blocked.
I’m just dreading the inevitable monetization. These spaces are fun in their alpha state. But it’s just a matter of time before there’s a “Let AI help you spam Shrimp Jesus to your friends” button and a “Pay $5 to override the Block function” feature.
Mastodon is social media where no one comments or likes anything.
It’s like a modern art masterpiece.
If the userbase of mastodon is even remotely similar to that of lemmy, I sure as fuck am glad I joined Bluesky instead
My Mastodon experience is far more pleasant than that of Lemmy.
My sense is Mastodon is far less left leaning (but still left of center) but it may just be a product of who I’m following and the tags I’m following.
I would love to have an unbiased Lemmy. But this is filled with mostly extreme far left people I talked to. I also get down voted any time I mention most people don’t use Imperial/Fahrenheit, except 5% of the world. Lemmy feels kind of hostile for open discussion.
My sense is Mastodon is far less left leaning (but still left of center)
Begging the question of what you think constitutes the political “center”, given how fash everything has become.
I’m too tired to hash that out with you.
Might be cause you’re bouncing between so many social media services
The actual center, which never moves even as extremists come and go, would be a little to the right of Elizabeth Warren, though not by much.
You’re always welcome to go back to Reddit if you don’t like it here.
You’re not, though. Reddit is Bots Only
Everyone something something bot
I did. The userbase in most of the subs there is warmer, not hostile, and much, MUCH less gatekeepy.
If lemmy ever wants to grow and actually succeed, I don’t see it happening with people acting like they are acting now.
I’ve had the exact opposite experience except people are anti blsky and reddit. That isn’t hostile.
I’ve had terrible experience with mainly tankies, which infest this site to its core. That was what mainly made it so hostile. Aversion to bluesky and reddit made it very gatekeepy
bluesky has made better choices - the starter packs and user lists are great for new users. They managed to add quote tweets but let the quoted person opt out of dog piles. It looks like they added options for custom algorithms too.
Bluesky will be enshittified but mastodon should be taking notes if they want to pick up people next wave.
The bluesky system is just way better. The local/fed feeds on masto are just wasted.
What if we’re wrong and BlueSky just gets better? I mean, with some of the corporate trappings of old Twitter, but still user-friendly, big userbases, vibrant subcultures and banning troublemakers?
It will, but it still has that countdown timer over its head.
The future is the fediverse, some yet-to-be-invented non-corporate equivalent, or offline.
I mean even if it repeats “the Twitter mistake” that’d still be another 13-14 years to go. Who knows where short-form social media will be conceptually in that time and whether any competition in the space is even still relevant.
Bluesky has useful tools. But (almost) all lists were made by the community of Bluesky users. Curation was made by users.
The block lists for various types of assholes are also a marvellous invention. It’s so nice to block all of MAGA at a click
It’s almost like the average person doesn’t care about the fediverse and decentralisation and only wants muskless twitter. Nooo clearly the normies are idiot sheep
If the reason people only want bluesky is because it’s Elon-less Twitter then they are stupid and wrong (or just ignorant). But then they can move to the next thing in 5 years when the enshittification happens.
I mean, the reason Musk is an issue is because Twitter is a privately owned, for-profit company. The issue is top-down leadership. Bluesky is absolutely doomed to the same fate.
Bluesky is a for-profit corporation backed by Venture Capital and run by Crypto assholes.
Jack Dorsey launched the initiative in 2019 as a proof-of-concept for a federated Twitter, which never happened. After dumping Twitter, he re-launched it as a standalone social media service and flagship ATProto instance, before jumping ship and letting it be run by committee. He now endorses Nostr, because BlueSky wasn’t friendly enough to Nazis.
The current BlueSky CEO, Lantian Graber, started her career running shitcoin/scamcoin exchange (SkuCoin), manufacturing ASIC mining rigs, and developing for Zcash. She masquerades as a progressive techie, even as all of her past experience leans Libertarian/Anarchocapitalist, and all of her other ventures’ websites are plastered with GenAI slop.
Bluesky is growing faster than ever expected, and with virtually zero real federation going on. It’s going to fail catastrophically when the new user base realizes they signed up for the same shit they were trying to get away from.
It isn’t that hard to realize that a FOSS product developed by a nonprofit (eg. Mastodon) is the correct answer, not more centralized, corporate, for-profit social media…
Bluesky is Decentralized, people are moving to Bluesky because it is easier to use and has better UI and UX. The reason people are moving to Bluesky and not mastodon has nothing to do with Decentralized, it is because it is simply user friendly. I used both and I think currently that Bluesky is definitely better. One of the biggest issues is the app, many users use their phones and The mastadon apps are awful in comparison to bluesky.
https://www.hostinger.com/tutorials/how-to-host-a-bluesky-pds
Bluesky is not decentralized if you have to use their relay to access the network from your PDS
That’s exactly the thing, mastodon has all of these nerd things attached to it that most people won’t care about, whilst BlueSky doesn’t
This, right there. What FOSS fans fail to understand is that some apps feel like a jigsaw to use for people less experienced in technology. Some people barely have an idea about how browser cookies work, and they are expected to understand the concept of manually picking up a server to create an account on, and you would still not be connected to everyone.
Yeah, Bluesky has both federation and ease of use, which is why many prefer it over Mastodon. Instead of making someone search for a server to join, Bluesky gives you a default server which makes it easier for less tech savvy users.
People who genuinely think like this (as in, that users going to Bluesky is somehow bad, surprising or something only stupid people do) are the very reason systems such as Mastodon cannot work. And sadly they naturally pervade such systems, at a development, administration and user level.
I will have to agree, what I see is people on the fediverse always talking about how others should join it and complain when people have the free will to choose other options. So far, it’s been painful to find a Mastodon instance, because the whole thing doesn’t feels intuitive, it’s hard to differentiate them, and all the topics that go on the honepage are just politics and people mentioning other platforms.
The Twitter user base must be burned by, then kill 2 platforms before they can truly understand and ascend.
I like Masodon but the user experience on Bluesky is easier and great block tools too. I don’t mind Mastodon not being mainstream, it is kinda good to have niche parts of the net still.
Nice profile picture! Do you have any suggestions of content to find on Mastodon? I’m pretty new there and I can’t find anything interesting when I open the app.
Mastodon is gatekept to hell and back, the technicalities of federation are exposed to the user for some reason (you already lose half your potential user base right there), infighting between instances means that you won’t see the entire discourse of a post depending on which instance you’re at…
And besides all that, bsky is not as “corpo” as mastodon fanboys make it out to be. They’re on track to open up to privately hosted instances as well, and you can already run most of their backend stuff yourself.
As much as I like the ‘decentralized’ stuff, the technical part of federation should NEVER be exposed to the end user if you want the platform to be mainstream. I still don’t understand why a lot of federated projects think it’s a good idea to expose that to the end user.
Whenever Lemmy or Masto gets a flood of new users, a portion of them never make it past the instance selection and totally bail.
The user experience was designed by people who literally respond to user feedback by telling users to commit new code to the project.
It’s clearly designed by engineers who assume other users will be just like them.
This of the core of the problem. Github energy.
Fine for a hobby. Not good enough for a public-facing product.
The project was started as an architectural thought experiment, not with the goals and limitations of the end user.
Now take all of these replies. THIS is what they don’t understand. All of these replies tell exactly how I feel about this.
If bluesky ever becomes actually federated, won’t it have the same problem?
Probably not. Currently it seems on track that you’re always first on their main instance. If you’re technically inclined you could then start hosting a federated part yourself (or joining one), but this does not change that the actual entry experience is exactly the same as on Twitter, hence why transition is so insanely smooth and painless.
The way sign up currently is, probably not. It would still default to bsky.social and your average person isn’t going to think about it.
But then it’s not federated. It’s all on one giant monolith of a server. Perhaps the traffic is shared between machines, but that’s not the same thing as federated.
Below is how account portability work between servers, it is easy to migrate between servers.
Account portability
We assume that a Personal Data Server may fail at any time, either by going offline in its entirety, or by ceasing service for specific users. The goal of the AT Protocol is to ensure that a user can migrate their account to a new PDS without the server’s involvement.
User data is stored in signed data repositories and verified by DIDs. Signed data repositories are like Git repos but for database records, and DIDs are essentially registries of user certificates, similar in some ways to the TLS certificate system. They are expected to be secure, reliable, and independent of the user’s PDS.
Each DID document publishes two public keys: a signing key and a recovery key.
Signing key: Asserts changes to the DID Document and to the user’s data repository.
Recovery key: Asserts changes to the DID Document; may override the signing key within a 72-hour window.
The signing key is entrusted to the PDS so that it can manage the user’s data, but the recovery key is saved by the user, e.g. as a paper key. This makes it possible for the user to update their account to a new PDS without the original host’s help.
A backup of the user’s data will be persistently synced to their client as a backup (contingent on the disk space available). Should a PDS disappear without notice, the user should be able to migrate to a new provider by updating their DID Document and uploading the backup
What other server is there?
I think a lot of the attitude I saw on mastodon about this like a year ago was one of suspicion that they wanted an open network but didn’t use the fediverse standard
Which AFAIK isn’t a standard, so… 🤷
ActivityPub is a W3C standard, though.
Oh I dis not know that! Interesting! Thanks for the correction.
I assume the main reason is that ActivityPub is a mess and quite overcomplicated for bsky’s needs. Being permanently tied to it seems like a big risk. There’s no reason why they couldn’t make a compatibility layer later and hook into it.
What happened to threads? I thought that was going to kill Twitter
It’s owned by facebook, it’s irrelevant.
I assumed people don’t trust Meta compared to Bluesky.
It’s predictably massive
https://techcrunch.com/2024/11/03/threads-now-has-275m-monthly-active-users/
Between threads and blue sky, the non-cultists are leaving in droves.
I wonder how much the two cult sites fight over the same users.
It basically exists for brands to advertise and avoids things like actual news. User counts are way overinflated. Heard multiple people say their algorithm is garbage.
their algorithm is garbage
Can confirm. It’s engagement bait at its worst
“Write a bit about yourself to join this server and if we decide you’re too boring and normal we’ll reject your application and say you’re a spammer afterwards”
Hmm I wonder why normies aren’t flocking to these fediverse platforms, what could be stopping them, couldn’t be the shitty onboarding process could it? Nah asking people to apply is the best onboarding process ever (obvious big ass /s)
It also acts as a filter to keep threat actors and spammers out. Open sign ups are actually a bad thing for the overall health of the network. Yes it also keeps out the lowest common denominator normies but those aren’t exactly the ones who contribute to the network as a whole anyway
This isn’t capitalism, there isn’t a need for growth for growth’s sake. There does need to be a more simplified way to onboard users but not at the cost of the health of the network.
I tried to join Beehaw simply because a reddit community I was actively part in went there.
I got told that’s not a valid reason to join, and that further applications from me would be ignored. I mean… okay? Sure… guess I’m no longer part of that community.
Beehaw sucks, they embraced the exclusive club mentality harder than anyone else.
You don’t have to do that when you sign up for mstdn.social, and it’s also not a requirement for mastodon.social And there are more instances where you don’t have to apply like that.
But when it’s asked that you apply to the server, it’s usually to ease the load of moderation, to see if you would fit the vibe of that instance. And/or to protect the more vulnerable people on that particular instance.
You don’t have to do that when you sign up for mstdn.social, and it’s also not a requirement for mastodon.social And there are more instances where you don’t have to apply like that.
Yes, and we need much more like that if we want this platform to be sucessful as a whole. Normies want to join social medias, not clubs.
But when it’s asked that you apply to the server, it’s usually to ease the load of moderation, to see if you would fit the vibe of that instance. And/or to protect the more vulnerable people on that particular instance.
We all know or should know that running a platform like a club where people need to apply and have their worth manually determined is a toxic and unwelcoming environment that does not promote any kind of growth, and the fact that it is common and encouraged is not helpful to the fediverse long term. It just pushes normies away. Because a social media doesn’t ask people to apply, a club does. Most people don’t want to join small exclusive clubs.
Yes, and we need much more like that if we want this platform to be sucessful as a whole. Normies want to join social medias, not clubs.
Why? There’s plenty of general servers aimed at normies that don’t require you to write an essay about yourself.
Let those specialty servers be specialty servers. Some only want artists, some only want neurodivergent people, some only want trans people on their platform. That’s their right! They get to decide who comes on their platform and who doesn’t. It’s not up to you to decide that for them. You need to understand that the people hosting these servers are not gazillionaires that do this out of the kindness of their hearts, they want to foster a certain atmosphere and a certain community on their server, and they do their best to keep disruptive people out. And one way of doing that is by limiting who gets on.
So instead of desperately trying to join blahaj_artists.social, why not join normies.social like mastodon.social or mstdn.social, or mastodon.coffee or any of the other ‘normie’ mastodon servers.
Go here, select “Sign up process: instant” and choose any of the servers on that page, and you’ll get in, without having to write an essay about yourself.
The vast majority of users are on general instances without demands like that. If you don’t want to join an exclusive club, just pick a sever that is not intended to be an exclusive club (I.e. nearly any of the big ones).
The top 3 servers on Lemmy are private clubs as of now, they may not have been before but they certainly are now. There are barely any for normies to join. I only found discuss.online because I was lucky enough to, and lets face it this is the only real option because the other one has a swear in the name and most people won’t want to join an immature server like that.
You can’t just pick a server, your options are severely limited, if discuss.online goes away or converts to a club too, there won’t be any options. You can’t “just pick a sever” that only works if you have choices. This is the last one, after that no more choices.
The conversation here is about mastodon
Good point, On Mastodon there are a handful more options but it’s generally not much better over there. Point is the Fediverse is suffering from becoming a collection of exclusive clubs rather than a social media platform.
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How did you decide which email provider you were going to go with? Did you set up your own server? Or perhaps gain access to an address through a community? Or did you go with a normies server like Yahoo, Hotmail, Gmail?
Honestly? I needed a Gmail account anyways, so I might as well use that. Same hammer-analogy, not going to buy a new one while mine is working.
I wasn’t talking about that, I was talking about your objection of “the requirement to select anything in the first place” with regards to a Mastodon server.
With that in mind, if email were to be released today, it’d be deemed “too hard for people to understand” because you have to choose what email provider you’re going to use. Are you going with AOL, or are you going to roll up your own? With some you even have to hand over money before you get access. Just too difficult!
Deemed by who? People who don’t want to adopt new things? It’s not too hard they just don’t want to do it and will make any excuse not to.
Yes and no. It was already rejection at the selection stage back then, but you luckily never had to. You got one from your ISP, or your university, and you just used that. Sure, some techies had their own mail server or so but it’s just mail, just use what you got was enough for the vast vast majority of people.
You’ve got mail!
Many Lemmy instances are requiring their users to apply for an account.
Yeah it’s actually a much bigger problem here than it is on Mastodon. Probably will end up slowing adoption of Lemmy in the future. Especially considering Lemmy is one of those platforms that really needs normie content and normie interaction to keep going, something it’s really struggling at currently.
And that makes it better how?
It doesn’t that was the point of my comment, it is sarcastic, because asking normies to write about themselves then manually determine their worth before they join will exclude the vast majority of them. Applications are how you run exclusive clubs, not a social media platform. Which is the biggest reason the Fediverse sucks for regular people.
I don’t want to join a club, I want to join a regular platform. That’s why I joined discuss.online and not any of the other exclusive club instances.
Yeah. I somehow caught that. I wasn’t responding to you.
It lowers the barrier of entry which may deter some people who just want to check out the space first.
Granted, it also makes it more accessible to scammers, so give and take really.
Tbf it’s a good way to keep the laziest of shits out
Elitist neckbeards like you are why Mastodon and Lemmy are still boring
I DON’T RECALL GETTING A PAYCHECK TO POST
Agreed. If someone can’t be bothered to write two sentences, they really have no business being on a discussion platform. Because clearly they won’t be contributing much if anything to the conversation.
Users don’t cost much to keep around, especially if they don’t post. The data needed for the account would be authentication data, and post data, the second of which doesn’t apply to users who don’t post, and the first one being negligible compared to the amount of space available on a common hard drive. So, why not just give them a chance?
Great, so you want to join a club instead of a social media? Is that it? Because that’s what you’re advocating for, small private clubs which most normies don’t have enough interest to join, out of fear of being rejected or just being rejected multiple times anyway. “Wonder why it’s so empty here?” -Lemmy Users trying to figure out why their exclusive Lemmy clubs haven’t taken off.
Most people aren’t satisfied with Lemmy’s very small and stagnant growth, and I can say I’m one of them, asking people to prove their worth and rejecting them for being a normie is a horrible strategy for growth.
So many of the people who are most invested in federation are a contradiction in terms; centralized social media is evil and it’s fucked up that it’s the norm, but also anyone who isn’t a cynical, crotchety Gen Xer with a tech degree doesn’t belong on federated social media.
Talk shit about normies all you want but they’re most of the people who repost memes and give communities life, you can’t cut them out and expect to have a thriving community. These practices of elitism and exclusion are the reason why Mastodon and the fediverse as a whole are stagnating.
I feel like you guys are addicted to letting perfect be the enemy of good. Yes, Bluesky being corporate run will probably be an issue down the line, but if it becomes mainstream then people will be used to seeing .APP.INSTANCE and feel more comfortable with the fediverse interface, which I know at least for me was a big hurdle. Like seriously, the fact that the next big thing is federated, even if in name only, is a big step forward.
Bluesky is such a huge improvement over twitter and so many people are just ignoring that. Yes, the app is centralized, but you can still host your own data if you choose. Plus, the customizable feeds, algorithms, and moderation lists are all great.
Yeah I’m a huge believer in federated systems but I believe that a lot of ‘normies’ going to bluesky is a huge step in the right direction. Even though most don’t know anything about the tech behind it and migrate because twitter has become a bot infested right wing hell scape, they still are one step closer to being fully integrated to the fediverse.
Bluesky’s ActivityPub support is also leagues better than Threads because of Bridgy Fed. At least a Bluesky user and a Mastodon user can follow each other and have a back-and-forth conversation.
I fully expect this to go away as soon as bluesky overtakes other platforms in users.
Yeah exactly! I’ve even used the bridge yesterday since I’m on Mastodon, and my girlfriend just migrated to bluesky after hearing about the exodus. The process is really easy and only takes a bit of time for some of the DMs to get sent, but otherwise I have no complaints!
please don’t bridge bsky to fedi.
Why not?
Because how else would we feel superior?
Half a loaf is better than no loaf
Expecting perfection is a huge problem in all aspects of life. People just want instant perfection and aren’t willing to work towards it. Then there’s just apathy and that leads to stagnation or worse regression.
Ohhh that’s your profile pic, I was really confused how you got verified haha
Oh no I’m definitely verified.
the irony of a bsky supporter complaining about being judged because it’s not perfect.
Imo sorry, but you are literally the reason why the fediverse has a bad name. Stop gatekeeping stuff or asking others to do so and just defederate if you don’t like it.
I genuinely have no idea what you’re implying lol
I think he accidentally called you perfect.
That’s the only interpretation I’m getting from it
