Yeah, both sides amiright?
Thanks, Uncommitted Assholes.
I loved having people arguing with me and saying “At least my conscience is clear.”
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
They think they get to wipe their hands of it because they “didn’t participate”, refusing to concede that said choice still counts as their participation. Through ignorance, cruelty, and/or privilege, they’ll blame everyone else for the state of the world while refusing to do their part.
Howard Zinn - you can’t be neutral on a moving train. The Enlightened Centrists ™ always look like suuuuuch dipshits when they talk about “both sides”.
Howard Zinn would not support the genocide of Palestinians nor voting for genociders, nor is withholding a vote neutrality. Zinn was forcefully against the War on Vietnam before it was acceptable in liberal academic circkes and drew a hard line on it.
Have you read his books?
I have indeed read his books. I doubt he would have welcomed the idea of putting donvict in office because something something “Genocide Joe”.
“bUt i VoTeD iNdEpEnDaNt”
I loved having people arguing with me and saying “At least my conscience is clear.”
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
There is a certain set of dumbasses that will say this kind of thing no matter what.
How’s your conscience now??? Still feeling good about your decision?
Yes.
Trump is an irredeemably evil genocidal psychopath who deserves eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell. That fact does not make me wish that I had voted for a different irredeemably evil genocidal psychopath who deserves eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell. The fact that Trump is horrible was never in dispute.
So Harris = Trump? Equal equal?
Oh, I didn’t say that. Not all irredeemably evil genocidal psychopaths who deserve eternal torture in the deepest circle of hell are exactly as bad.
But it means your vote could have helped bring the victory to someone less genocidal.
I know Harris is not a pro-Palestine person, but she’s someone we could have talked to and could have felt the pressure of her voters. At the very least she doesn’t support the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza, unlike Trump, who couldn’t give less of a shit about Palestinians and is happy if Israel leveled them down
P.S. I don’t want to make you feel guilty. The political system the US people live in is a shit. I’m just disappointed that maybe she could have had a chance of winning if people didn’t abstain.
she’s someone we could have talked to and could have felt the pressure of her voters.
No, she absolutely isn’t.
Politicians are never more receptive to voters’ concerns than just before an election. Once they have people’s votes, they tend to shift further in the direction of interests groups and the establishment. Like, for example, on the campaign trail, Obama promised to end mass surveillance and protect whistleblowers, but once he was in office, he did the opposite. Harris on the campaign trail, after the widespread campus protests, was the most pro-Palestine she would ever be, which is to say not even the slightest bit and completely unconditionally supportive of material aid to Israel.
It used to be that politicians would promise to do good things on the campaign trail, and then usually not follow through. But now they don’t even have to promise anything, because people will just project whatever views and values they hold onto whichever candidate they like regardless of anything they say or do.
Harris and Biden are unconditionally supportive of everything Israel does. Short of direct involvement of the US military, it’s not really possible for Trump to be meaningfully worse than that.
Okay I understand your point. Unfortunately Palestinians are not the only targeted ones. We have
- LGBTQ people
- Atheists and non-Christians
- Leftists and pro-democracy people. Non-fascists in general
- Scientists
- Ukrainians
- Refugees and immigrants
Harris said and has showed to support them. Trump vowed to destroy all of them.
Harris and Biden are unconditionally supportive of everything Israel does. Short of direct involvement of the US military, it’s not really possible for Trump to be meaningfully worse than that.
Remind me of this genocide-downplaying take in three months or so, please.
I’ll be there devil’s advocate here and say that this whole shit show started under Biden and Harris
Feeling very good about my decision, yes.
Dirtier than Trump supporters
the donors of the Democrats/Republicans are doing a good job keeping the citizens divided and pointing fingers at each other
Yeah, no.
After months of alleged “Genocide Joe” bullshit, they don’t get to shirk themselves of this.
They were told this was going to happen. They didn’t want to listen.
But hey, they’ve gone from not complicit, to extremely complicit.
Democrats always have a scapegoat to explain the bad performance away too
Your statement that we were not complicit before is just plain old lies.
I think you have the wrong we in that case
Nothing alleged about Genocide Joe.
Any vote for Harris or trump was still a vote for the war crimes to continue. The American people never had a say on this issue.
And yet, this very article we’re commenting on is about war crimes getting worse.
Almost like when your options are “bad” or “worse” you shouldn’t vote for “worse.”
That sounds like some extortion. Not exactly something I would want to champion or believe to be a viable political platform
Blinks
That… is nothing the fuck like extortion.
“Vote for me or I’ll release these pictures of you fucking your dog” is extortion.
“Vote for me because my opponent will make this issue you claim to care about worse” is not.
“Vote for me or my friend here will kill your dog” is the alleged scenario.
Though really the person making that threat is also saying they will kill your dog.
That sounds like some extortion.
Life gives us hard choices. Whining that they don’t perfectly suit your pristine moral absolutism doesn’t change that.
That reads like exactly how republicans describe democrats. Can you not see how far to the right you have strayed?
Normalizing genocide is not a hard choice, it just confronted boilerplate Dem propaganda and any pretense of being a good person.
If you are intetested in doing real political work it will not be something as minor as a single vote for 99% Hitler vs. 98% Hitler.
Oh, I’m sorry genocide isn’t a big enough issue for you, I hope you get a new set of morals soon, yours seems damaged.
And yet, this very article we’re commenting on is about war crimes getting worse.
Except it isn’t because the US has been continually supolying the arms Israel needs to carry out this genocide and these supposed “restrictions” are a fig leaf.
Again, the Biden-Harris regime provides unconditional support to Israel and its genocide. Recycled clichés about lesser evils don’t apply.
There are differences in degree between Trump and the Democrats, and anyone who claims otherwise is malicious or ignorant. But stick to your binary thinking and reflect on what you’ve done to the rest of us by putting Trump back into power.
That’s true, there is a difference! While the genocide would receive material support either way, Democrats receive your support and silence while Republicans do not.
Yeah, no. After months of alleged “Genocide Joe” bullshit, they don’t get to shirk themselves of this.
I see, so you are going to let them have it by whining and nagging on anonymous forums? Is that how you will keep them from “shirking”?
alleged “Genocide Joe” bullshit
For a guy who’s only alleged, he sure does support a lot of genocide.
No. That’s not a thing.
It is, of course. Matginslization is created and maintained to suit ruling class interests, to ensure you blame the marginslized rather than the capitalist.
Why do you think immigrants are being scapegoated? Did they close the factories or fire the workers?
It was the Harris campaign that made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of at least a +6 points gain. Those votes were entirely up for grabs. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with having the most lethal Military and unwaivering support for Israel a year into this genocide. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election. Biden is a Christian Zionist, the genocide and de juro annexation of Palestine is exactly what he wants.
I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign to earn votes to win. If they took this election seriously, they would have been going after those votes. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.
Quote
Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
Quotes
In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
Quotes
Quotes
Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
The United States Administration is the one enabling Israel unconditionally. Support for this genocide is bipartisan.
Can you also make a graph on how many luxury hotels Trump is going to build in Gaza after the rubble is cleared, thanks 👍
Do you think I’ve ever supported Trump or something when I’ve repeatedly called out his Hitlarian and Fascist rhetoric and policies?
Yes, because you helped him win.
By voting for Harris? By telling others to also vote for Harris even if anti-genocide is their single issue? By voicing my concern that the campaigns strategy of ignoring all the uncommitted voters in swing states and failing to break from Biden on one of his most unpopular positions was risking losing the election? How exactly did I help Trump win?
By promoting the lies that either Biden or Harris can single handedly stop the genocide, and that they’ve made no attempt to do so.
If we just ended our alliance with Israel, do you know what they would do next? They would likely ally themselves with Russia instead.
That would give Russia control over a port that facilitates a huge portion of commerce in the middle east. It would also give them control of a lot of tech companies, including Intel’s massive R&D campus, and they would have access to the iron dome, which would be a pretty big intelligence leak. Israel also has an extremely important spy network that western countries rely on, and suddenly they would start serving Russia instead.
It would also allow the rest of the middle east to “escape containment”, so to speak. Particularly Iran. As soon as that happens, where do you think their missiles will go next?
Oh, and the genocide of Palestinians would still continue.
Geopolitics is complicated, and Biden was walking a tightrope. He was at least placing limits on how US weapons could be used, and trying to negotiate a ceasefire. Trump will scrap all of that and encourage Israel to kill everyone in the region.
But you didn’t care about any of that. Your moral outrage prevented you from trying to figure out why things are the way they are, and you joined the choir of people who were trying to prevent anyone from voting for Harris. A choir that mostly consisted of Trump supporters who were just trying to promote anything that might hurt Harris’s chances of winning.
By promoting the lies that either Biden or Harris can single handedly stop the genocide, and that they’ve made no attempt to do so.
They haven’t. You can’t have a permanent ceasefire when the US is continually supplying military weapons unconditionally to the side committing the genocide.
He was at least placing limits on how US weapons could be used, and trying to negotiate a ceasefire
Only in rhetoric, not in policy. No limits were placed even after the 30 day deadline of Israel continuing to deny aid to a starving population. The same population Israel continually targets civilians, mostly women and children, and civilian infrastructure like hospitals and refugee camps.
Timeline: The Biden administration on Gaza, in its own words
One Year of Empty Rhetoric From the White House on Israel’s Wars
If we just ended our alliance with Israel, do you know what they would do next? They would likely ally themselves with Russia instead.
Reigning in Israel into a permanent ceasefire is not ‘ending our alliance’ it would only force Israel to abide by International Humanitarian Law for once and end the genocide and Apartheid. Nor would that mean they would Ally with Russia, which they aren’t even on great terms with. Peace is also in China’s best interest in order to increase trade with Middle East countries.
Geopolitically, Russia still benefits far more from peace than the current situation.
On Russia and the Middle East
But beyond Russia rekindling old ties and worrying about domestic extremism, the big shift in the Russian relationship with Israel is rooted in Moscow’s increasingly close bilateral security relationship with Iran. I don’t think we can emphasize this enough. This development puts the rest of us—the United States and Europe—in quite a predicament. Russia is now engaged with Iran in two different conflicts, Ukraine and Israel/Gaza. Obviously, this is in quite different ways, but the Russia/Iran relationship greatly complicates the situation in the Middle East, Israel, and Gaza, and the battlefield in Ukraine. Russia’s relationship with Iran—not just Zelenskyy’s Jewish heritage, or all the Russian speakers of Jewish Ukrainian heritage in Israel—as well as the U.S. role in support of both Ukraine and Israel start to draw the two sets of conflicts into the same geopolitical frame.
I think prior to October 7, the Russians were very interested in the idea of the Israelis having a breakthrough with Saudi Arabia that they could then capitalize on economically and politically. Putin may even think that he can still bounce back with Israel at some point when the dust settles in Gaza, although I doubt that. I heard a prominent Israeli at a recent event say that Russia has now moved itself into the enemy category with Israel after decades of relations improving. And Russia has also always had a somewhat complex and awkward relationship with Saudi Arabia, even though they’ve been recently touting that relationship—we saw Putin on a sort of semi-victory tour of the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia in early December last year.
In the context of energy relationships, where Saudi Arabia is so important, Russia has often not gone along with what OPEC+ and the Saudis have wanted in terms of committing to production cuts to bolster oil prices. Russia is always thinking about its own bottom line, and volume is often better for Moscow than just price. Putin is continually focused on trying to make sure that Russia’s energy revenues are not imperiled in any way—especially given Moscow’s loss of its dominant position in Europe’s energy markets after the invasion of Ukraine. And then there is Iran, and Saudi Arabia’s difficult relationship and regional rivalry with Tehran. This is one of the reasons why Putin went to the UAE and Saudi Arabia in December 2023, to cozy up to the Gulf Cooperation Council/leading Gulf states and Saudi Arabia to balance Russia’ closer security ties with Iran.
You can rationalize the US’s decision to fund and allow Israel to eradicate the entire people of Palestine all you want. It is unacceptable. It’s causing a rise in genuine antisemitism and islamophobia. I will do everything in my power to support Palestinian sovereignty and emancipation.
Western liberals live in a fog of thought-terminating clichés that allow them to support The Party regardless of what it does or stands for. One of those ckichés is thst if you disagree with them or don’t support their politicians, you are actually a sleeper agent of the “enemy” faction.
Calling you a Trump supporter isn’t the only variation on this. They do the same re: “Putler” if you criticize US policy tiwards Ukraine and various racist accusations if you are anything less than a sinophobe.
In fact there are already BlueAnon conspiracy comments in this comment section trying to call pro-Palestinian protesters a Russian op. Normally you’d see this kind of logic on your weird Uncke’s facebook page but through liberalism alk things are possible.
Your take is absolutely idiotic.
How? What does blaming voters accomplish exactly?
If the Democratic Party is genuinely democratic, then they would respond to public pressure. If the Democratic party is not and instead only beholden to Donor interests, then we all have a much bigger problem where the interests of the American public is not represented.
Harris became the candidate without winning a single primary, the only explicit democrstic mechanism in the party itself. She lost to Andrew Yang. She was selected behind closed doors by party insiders and donor input.
Dems have never been democratic, they are a capitalist party by and for the largest business owners and finance. They cannot be reformed. The most realistic electoral option is for them to die like the Whigs and be replaced, though even that will be highly limited by the outsized power capitalists have over the state.
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I have no clue what you’re trying to say here
Why would I expect people who care about ending the genocide to stop caring about that?
Thank you for voicing this opinion in this thread, and bringing the receipts.
A Gaza ceasefire would be impossible without Netanyahu agreeing to it. So that 6% swing’s based on a hypothetical that’d never happen, especially when Netanyahu was doing everything he could to help Trump. And, if Trump were the candidate of peace, why would that butcher do that?
Guess what then
Lie to the American people.
Lie like Obama did! And lie well. Tell the biggest lie. Because clearly that worked for Trump!
Democrats stared down the barrel of fascism this election, and didn’t even think to come off their high horse to score a victory.
I mean, they still lied plenty, they aren’t on a high horse for pretending to push a ceasefire while providing unconditional support for Israel.
They made a choice to stick by their pro-Israel donors and NatSec ghouls that want clear pro-Israel messaging.
Don’t leave out the Harris campaign with the Cheneys and the DNC
Wasn’t the uncommitted movement some 100,000 people strong?
Didn’t Harris lose by millions?
How would have the uncommitteds saved the election if their numbers represented a fraction of what Democrats needed?
Could a more likely explanation of this deplorable outcome be that Democrats did this to themselves by not rallying up their base enough to bring more people out to vote?
Stop blaming the American people.
Almost 100,000 in Michigan alone likely flipped the swing state.
Looks like Harris did lose by about 79,000 votes in Michigan.
Comparatively, about 44,500 went to Stein.
We don’t ultimately know how the uncommitted movement voted. If they were a monolith throughout, we’d expect 100k for Stein. If some abstained and some voted for Harris or Trump, that would’ve split the movement.
If all of Stein’s voters went to Harris, however, that wouldn’t have changed the outcome. Harris would have still been short ~34,400. So if you wanted to make the argument that the uncommitted movement was a voting block, then the entire ~44k block voting for Harris wouldn’t have changed the outcome.
Overall I don’t see Michigan outcomes changing my argument. If Dems were more persuasive, even if they lied about Gaza, they could have sweeped the nation. And even if the uncommitteds chose the lesser of two evils, Kamala still lost all other swing states. You can’t chock the outcomes of those states up to the uncommitteds, because the largest organizational presence was in Michigan.
They would have been enough to secure the swing states and win Harris the electorial college. Her campaign would have need to promote more progressive policies that addresses the material needs of Americans, instead of running to the right on issues, in order to also pick up the popular vote.
Stop blaming the American people
100% It’s entirely on the campaign to secure votes. That’s the entire job of the campaign. Blaming voters is an easy scapegoat that accomplishes nothing. And when it’s blaming marginalized groups, it seems like it’s only promoting hate against the people most vulnerable to the violence of fascism
I voted Uncommitted in the primary so that Biden and the Democrats would get a count of how many people took the issue seriously. Primaries are a great place for message votes.
I also donated, volunteered, and voted for the Biden and then Harris campaigns, and didn’t hold back any support in public. I had no illusions about how bad it would (now will) be with Trump in the Whitehouse.
Yes, thank you for teaching the lesson that you should not support genocide.
Now we get to see who has learned from this snd who is going to double down despite losing.
Well, to all the folks arguing with me on how voting for Harris was bad because of Gaza: CONGRATULATIONS! You REALLY made a point there. The Palestinians had a chance under Harris. Instead of voting for a chance for the Palestinians, you did nothing or voted for genocide. You did it from the other side of the world, where you won’t have to suffer the consequences.
“A vOTe fOR hARriS iS a VoTE FoR gENociDe”
Fucking morons
Fucking Russians. Fixed it for you.
“BlUe MaGa”
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The turnout of Democratic voters was lower than previous elections. There are too many variables at play to claim anything definitively, but it’s safe to assume that the number of voters who abstained due to the issue was more than zero.
If a conclusion is going to be drawn about whether the whole genocide topic had a tangible effect on the outcome, it’s important to consider those as well as the protest votes.
I really want to see a credible analysis showing how many of those non-votes were due to abstentions versus voter-suppression mesaures such as electoral-roll purges, overcrowded polling stations, fake challenges at the polls, etc.
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For something like 30 years running, the real winner of the election was non-voters. When other countries have this level of boycott and the US doesn’t like them, they get called “regimes” in need of “democraticization”.
I believe there was real, grassroots protests, and the people who were there genuinely, were easily manipulated by those who were there maliciously into literally fighting for the opposite thing that they wanted.
It would be impressive if it weren’t so goddamn depressing.
Online, on the other hand, agents provocateur everywhere. Plus more useful idiots who are now the ones who will either be an adult and admit they fucked up, or double and triple down on their mistake in order to preserve their ego (somewhat understandably so, as they seem to actually give a shit about Palestinian lives and now have to live with the role they played in escalating the genocide).
And to be clear, I consider myself an ardent supporter of Palestine in the genocide Israel is perpetrating. Which is exactly why I did the one small thing in my power that could have possibly done something to reduce that damage and not escalate the genocide (btw, a lot of people here are going to find out that genocide ≠ genocide ≠ genocide. In the worst way possible). And that was to vote for Harris.
If you want to find out what’s coming, just pick up a history book for once. A couple weeks too late, but at least you’ll learn why you fucked up.
You cannot call yourself an ardent supporter of Palestine while speaking about pro-Palestinian protesters like they are aliens or well-meaning idiots manipulated by unspecified malevolent forces. Anyone that is ardently pro-Palestinisn is at the protests, organizing actions, and speaks as a member of the community, not separate from it.
Please take some time to ask yourself whether you have the experience and knowledge required to talk on this topic.
It was pretty obvious most Americans don’t care about Gaza, and didn’t let it influence their voting.
I’ve seen polling prior to the election that asked people about their most important issues when voting.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/651719/economy-important-issue-2024-presidential-vote.aspx
The Republican voter’s top issues were the economy, immigration, terrorism/nation security, crime and taxes.
Meanwhile, the Democrat top issues were US democracy, the supreme court, abortion, healthcare and education.
Basically, foreign policy was a non issue for voters. Gaza did not factor into most voter’s decisions at all. And of course it doesn’t. When you’re worried about putting food on the table, you can’t afford rent, your bodily autonomy is at stake and your country is going to shit… you’d be silly to vote based on Gaza. Because that’s directly voting against your own interests. Gaza should not have been a large talking point or even at all.
I think the reason a lot of Democrats stayed home was basically candidate fatigue. They just didn’t feel like voting for a candidate so boring and faceless. And she didn’t have nearly enough time to turn things around. Why bother voting when democratic leadership clearly isn’t taking voters and their actual issues seriously?
Yes, we are seeing that in spades in this comment section.
After 13 months of genocide backed by your candidates, where you were all out here sharing false lesser evil logic and other thought-terminating clichés about how you need to tolerate genocide to win, well, your candidate lost. Your strategy failed. Really, the party’s strategy failed, as your political role relative to its decisions is someone who makes no demands and can be largely ignored.
Are you taking this time to reflect on how you were wrong? That maybe you shouldn’t support genocide or project a false pretense of political understanding when what’s underneath is really just right wing Democrat Reddit memes?
Nope, nothing is ever the fault of the party or its most dedicated soldiers. The party cannot fail, it can only be failed, right?
Blue MAGA.
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
Doubtful: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/15/biden-israel-gaza-palestine
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
based on what data? You’re just making stuff up.
based on them trying to feel better about voting for genocide and losing. they got the worst of both worlds instead of doing the right thing and gathering support for a better party
The mighty democratic party ladies and gents, blaming their epic across-the-entire government, across every demographic loss on a tiny minority of voters they explicitely said they’d bomb —instead of owning the fact that they are out of touch with all of their voters who arent rich people.
Yeah, but they’ve stuck to their guns, and now they can stand proud next to the bodies, knowing they never compromised on their moral integrity.
We are not the ones complicit in this genocide. That is, in fact, those supporting the people committing genocide.
Please remember this statement when we see what exactly the Trump admin does to stop the genocide.
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
No, they didn’t.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to get through the night, buddy.
Right back atcha.
Well, to all the folks arguing with me on how voting for Harris was bad because of Gaza: CONGRATULATIONS! You REALLY made a point there.
Yes, I hope you can take this time to internalize a lesson: you should not support genocide or genociders. The candidate and strategy that you embraced was a gamble tbat you could support genocide and still win the election if you just recycled enough bad faith talking points at the people who consistently oppose genocide.
As you can see, you were wrong. And yet here you are trying to blame others rather than learn this lesson. Do some self-criticism instead. I hope you can forgive yourself for supporting genocide for a cynical loser like Harris.
The Palestinians had a chance under Harris.
Harris, of the Biden-Harris regime, has had an identical line to Biden’s during this 13 months of US-backed genocide. Unconditional material support and some empty rhetoric trying to PR handle their base rather than change policy.
What do you imagine when you say, “had a chance”? Is it the current mass civilian bombing campaigns? Children burned alive? Mass starvation and malnutrition? Those are the things you’ve gone to bat for, that is the realized vision of the Biden-Harris regime.
you did nothing or voted for genocide
The people voting for genocidal candidates like Harris or Trump voted for genocode. That was something you seem to have done, but not I.
You did it from the other side of the world, where you won’t have to suffer the consequences.
You cannot make your support for a genocider into an anti-privilege clapback. Do some self-criticism because this is gross.
Yes, I hope you can take this time to internalize a lesson: you should not support genocide or genociders.
Sorry, what exactly is the lesson to be learned from this election, in which the candidate who more vocally supports the genocide won? As in, showing more support for the genociding party and demonstratively siding in all points with the genociders with not even rhetorical pushback, just pure endorsement of the genocide? Which lesson will analysing this election yield again?
Sorry, what exactly is the lesson to be learned from this election, in which the candidate who more vocally supports the genocide won?
If it must be fully spelled out, it is that you cannot rope people whose politics is premised on empathy into supporting genocide and you will lose unless you demand better. If you want to fight against the forces of reaction, you cannot triangulate towards them, you have to actually have a semi-principled political program, not one premised on tokenization and “vote for us or the other guy will kill you even more”.
You seem to be wrong. Donald Trump didn’t demand better and he didn’t lose. The more pro-genocide party objectively won.
people whose politics is premised on empathy
You must not have read this part. Republican politics don’t rely on empathy, but democratic policy supposedly does, thus less turnout for a less empathetic democratic candidate.
That’s a very narrow grouping you draw there. Because in that group you are describing, the democrats got the most votes bar none. Nobody in that narrow category got even got close.
Those are the things you’ve gone to bat for, that is the realized vision of the Biden-Harris regime.
There’s a difference between making the best of a bad situation and going to bat for it. Your choices were someone who there is a chance of reigning in Israel or someone that told them to do whatever they want with weapons we send. The latter is obviously a bad choice unless you agree with Israel.
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Weird how repeatedly calling for an immediate cease fire and a two state solution in Israel = “genocide”.
March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
“Monday’s meeting in Washington, D.C., comes one day after Harris called for an immediate, temporary cease-fire in Gaza to facilitate an exchange of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners and detainees. Harris is expected to continue pressing Israel to pause the fighting and allow more humanitarian aid into Gaza.”
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
“Vice President Kamala Harris met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in private Thursday and followed it with a strikingly forceful call on his government to get a cease-fire deal done and ease the suffering of civilians in Gaza.”
“Vice President Kamala Harris reiterated her call for a ceasefire-for-hostage deal in Gaza while expressing sympathy for both Israelis and Palestinians affected by the conflict. Harris condemned the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on southern Israel but said “far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed” by Israel’s ongoing military offensive in Gaza.”
Do you get something out of mis-representing what she said and did? Or were you just not actually paying attention?
So what is your solution be since Gaza is so important to you? Do you want to be absolved of your voting decision?
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giving putin a free pass at ukraine will be after lunch, then?
He’s not sure, he’s still waiting on orders from Putin.
Let’s be real. The Zionists in charge are Nazis and there was never a path out of genocide in these elections.
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Trump will dismantle this country and the Christians will cheer it on as society circles the drain
These idiots should be disqualified for holding office, since at least some of them, and/or the people they represent, simply don’t think this world matters, but only their fictional eschatology.
It’s bananas when you actually talk to some of them. Weirdly, though, some of them are still preppers. Wait, I thought you will be one of the blessed chosen ones in the end times? WTF are they stockpiling MREs and thinking they’ll be hunting for deer with a bow and arrow or some shit…none of their plans - if you can call them that - make any fucking sense, but they want to rule so that they can drag more advanced people, cultures, and societies down with them into their lunacy and their absolute literal hellscape.
The Rapture happened, three Quakers, a Unitarian and a radical Catholic nun disappeared mysteriously, otherwise business as usual.
Such a fucking idiotic take… I’m sure Palestinians will take heart in this sentiment when they get gassed out of existence on January 21.
The Zionist entity, generally speakinf, does not use gas. They use large scake bombing campaigns and white phosphorus. This has already been happening for 13 months, if you weren’t aware.
I’m not happy about it either.
Where my “Democrats are evil genocide people” posters now?
Russians don’t need to make them anymore.
Democrats should never have supported genocide. Am I a Russian?
I wonder if any of you are ever going to realize you’re just doing reskinned Protocols of the Elders of Zion antisemitism with this
The Elders Of Zion is a bullshit made up hoax book for propaganda purposes. Unless you’re referencing it as such, it is not a work to be cited in any serious context.
I’m begging you to learn adult level reading comprehension.
Unless you’re referencing it as such
They very obviously are. How could you possibly read their comment otherwise?
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Right here. Republicans being worse doesn’t excuse selling weapons for an ongoing genocide. Democrats never should have done that. And it got you nothing. You supported genocide for nothing.
I think a lot of the hostility here is because centrists are mad that trump is going to be able to take credit for the complete implementation of their only policy.
It still applies? Just because the Republicans are exponentially worse doesn’t mean the democrats weren’t supporting genocide too.
No, it doesn’t apply at all.
The point of the anti-Dem posts was to get people to not vote Dem when objectively allowing a trump win was worse.
You’re suggesting actively supporting worse is better.
That’s fucked up.
I’m not at all suggesting supporting worse is better and I have no clue how you came to that conclusion. Allowing a Trump win was absolutely worse and I agree it would have been better for everyone to suck it up and vote blue.
That being said its incredibly fucked up to pretend the democrats are completely innocent which is just blatantly not true. They are better by comparison, but definitely not innocent and still supportive of genocide.
I’m not talking about the posts, I’m talking about you guys trying to sweep shit under the rug. It doesn’t work like that.
There is no “you guys trying to sweep shit under the rug”. It doesn’t work like what you’re saying. Nobody is pretending the democrats are innocent. That’s fucked up. Nobody is.
There are people that realize that the current policy sucks, but the alternative is so much worse.
That is all.
To answer your question: It does not still apply.
Are you asking if we still think Biden and Harris are complicit in the ongoing genocide? Yeah, yeah we do. Shit is bad right now, long before Trump takes office.
what is that website? new to lemmy.
It’s Hexbear, the instance I have my main account on. It’s an explicitly leftist (anarchist, communist) instance that has a unique history in the lemmyverse as having started and developed for several years on its own. As a consequence it has a completely different vibe from the rest of this place. For one thing its userbase is >60% lgbt+. Check it out!
ah interesting. good to know. thank!
the blue maga can’t see anything with their tongue so up dnc cronies.
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Harris supporters never embraced genocide.Take your bullshit and leave.
But you’re ok embracing Trump genocide?
No? Why are you making things up?
Am I? If you don’t think we get more genocide with Trump you are willfully not paying attention.
Who was embracing genocide? At least here most people are pro Palestine
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Weird how repeatedly calling for an immediate cease fire and a two state solution in Israel = “Harris genocide”.
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March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
“Monday’s meeting in Washington, D.C., comes one day after Harris called for an immediate, temporary cease-fire in Gaza to facilitate an exchange of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners and detainees. Harris is expected to continue pressing Israel to pause the fighting and allow more humanitarian aid into Gaza.”
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
“Vice President Kamala Harris met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in private Thursday and followed it with a strikingly forceful call on his government to get a cease-fire deal done and ease the suffering of civilians in Gaza.”
“Vice President Kamala Harris reiterated her call for a ceasefire-for-hostage deal in Gaza while expressing sympathy for both Israelis and Palestinians affected by the conflict. Harris condemned the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on southern Israel but said “far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed” by Israel’s ongoing military offensive in Gaza.”
Do you get something out of mis-representing what she said and did? Or were you just not actually paying attention?
You do realize that words and deeds are not the same thing. Or words and words:
Kamala Harris Tailors Ad Messaging on Gaza, Israel to Sway Michigan, Pennsylvania Voters
She’s part of the Biden admin and did not promise to change anything about the policy towards Israel (which is full support even when Israel crosses their so called “red lines”), so she’s 100% complicit in genocide.
As I’ve told multiple propagandists, the support for Israel was for proper Israeli defense, NOT the genocide.
Nobody, not a single person, in the Biden Administration, delivered weapons with the explicit permission of “By all means, kill as many Palestinians as you want.”
The Israelis misappropriated the weapons to do that.
Feel free to blame Netanyahu and Likud for the genocide all you want, they are the ACTUAL perpetrators.
You should be able to tell this because the genocide started 10/7 before a dime of US aid had been promised or delivered.
They’re still sending weapons. You can’t keep giving guns to a guy that keeps murdering people, and then say “I told him not to murder people it’s not my fault”. How would that hold up in court?
Love you just proving their point on why everyone stopped. Because all that happens is instant bans or removals for pointing out flaws.
Also how many of those are just her saying submit to allowing Israeli forces to continue killing everyone after a 30/60 day ceasefire
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What proof?
Biden and Blinken have also been working on a ceasefire for the entire year. They’re working the hardest they ever have on it and all we’ve gotten is us building a failed pier to help Israel launch a military attack.
FYI you can’t use propaganda then claim people are only believing in propaganda
It is on them. If you oppose genocide why would you be okay with it happening elsewhere?
They’re pretending there was some other possibility besides Harris or Trump.
The future is always an open question, my friend. And Harris always had the ability to change her stance.
I’ll bet you any amount of money that the next president is either the Dem or Rep nominee.
I repeated this over and over before the 2020 election. No one took me up on it.
I repeated it over and over again before the most recent election. No one took me up on it.
And no one will take me up on it for 2028 either because we all know what’s going to happen. So let’s stop pretending like we don’t.
I’m not going to bet against you because I don’t trust you, and also because I don’t bet money on politics. We are already betting various aspects of our lives. Putting a little bit of cash on the line is a waste of time compared with everything else.
So I guess you win the argument? Not really though, because no one cares about what you’re saying you want to bet against people around you. In reality, you can play the odds, but in the end we don’t care what the odds were. We only care what actually happened, and we don’t know what’s going to happen on account of it not having happened just yet.
And the other point is that I don’t care what the political party of the president is. I care what the president and their supporters try to push through in terms of policies. Not all Democrats are created the same. Not all Republicans are created the same. And even if they were, which they’re not, politicians and political parties adjust their stances over time, because of course they do, because that’s natural. A label is just a label.
I’m not going to bet against you because I don’t trust you, and also because I don’t bet money on politics.
But also because you know I’m right. Please stop pretending like you don’t know that. Save some amazing and very welcome change to our electoral system, you know damn well I’m right.
because no one cares about what you’re saying you want to bet against people around you.
It’s not really about the bet or money. It goes to show that we all know what the outcome will be. People pretend to believe some other outcome is possible, likely even. But when presented with a bet they back off immediately. Why? Because we all know.
and we don’t know what’s going to happen on account of it not having happened just yet.
I’m doing too well in my predictions over these past few elections for it to be a coincidence. I know exactly what’s going to happen and so do you. That or I have powers of foresight for a very particular event…
And the other point is that I don’t care what the political party of the president is. I care what the president and their supporters try to push through in terms of policies.
Sure… I guess? When it comes down to it, I also don’t care which party wins as long as the candidate aligns with me politically. That’s not news. But you know as well as I do that a Republican is much less likely to give me a public option, real action on climate, institute policies to encourage walkable cities, or any of the other policies I imagine you and I align on. Why pretend like any of them is remotely possible from the Republican side?
Exactly. For a country with as many mass shootings as we see we are a soft country. People strap bombs to their chest to achieve less toward their own goals. These brats think major change will happen in a year. The reality is that if you want major change you got to accept that it is unlikely to happen out life times.
In what way were we wrong? Did we ever claim Trump would be good on Gaza?
Yes. Now fuck off.
exit polls showed that harris lost mainly on the economy. You just want to pretend it was gaza so you can point fingers.
Nope, it was the apathy. Democrats that came out to vote for Biden 4 years ago stayed home. That’s a FACT you can count in the number of votes cast this election vs last.
You know what else is a fact? People that stayed home and didn’t vote DIDN’T GET EXIT POLLED.
Exit polls and polls leading up to election. Come on now, lets not mince words or pretend the data wasnt obvious. They did know. It was all over the news snce the day she started her run.
“The economy, particularly inflation and the cost of living, is the primary issue for a majority of voters.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm24g1nj364o
Bidens historically low approval rating was well documented, and the reason for it being low was well understood. She chose to say that “she couldnt think of anything she’d change” or something like that. She ran on a platform that had already ended up on the rocks long ago. Centrists just put their fingers in their ears and pretended Biden was the second coming of FDR whenever Biden was criticised, but the numbers were there waiting to be read if you cared about reality and dropped the infantile “rooting for your sports team, blue no matter who” mentality.
88% of Americans disagreed with how the US was acting in the Israeli war on gazans. Did you think that would be cost-free, or that Biden showed he had votes to burn in the last election or the ones before that? he didnt. Harris knew that wouldnt be consequence free. She ran with it anyway. Thats just Bidens stubborn rightwing-fellating petulant stupidity thats been the hallmark of his entire career bleeding into Harrnis’ campaign. A competent politician wouldnt have taken on that baggage when it was so obviously going to cost big in swing states.
“The vice president has said she would not change from Biden’s policies, and argued that Israel has a right to defend itself. But she has also said that far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed”
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4895174-democrats-middle-east-conflict/
She chose to say that “she couldnt think of anything she’d change”
She said she wouldn’t have done anything differently from what Biden did. When asked what the difference between a Harris and Biden admin would be, she said she would appoint a republican to the cabinet.
Exit polls are flawed in the sense that the people who don’t vote aren’t there to begin with.
God forbid someone point a finger for supporting genocide
Shut up pro-Russian account.
(He’ll start whining something personal, my proof is in that he won’t answer the question “are you pro-Russian”, watch;)
Are you pro-Russian? (And yes, this is related to the thread because you can’t not be trusted a pro-Putler person to talk about genocide when you don’t accept Uighur genocide happening either.)
edit after a week; case in point; the whole thread below this. just squirming and squirming not so say they’re not Russian. They literally support genocide, from this thread, you can easily see what a Russian troll actually looks like. It’s someone with a poor education and poor understanding of Western culture trying to parrot Soviet propaganda styles from the 70’s. anyone’s who’s sat a few classes of rhetoric will get a good laugh out of him, lol.
you can’t not be trusted
middle school dropout
Why would you advertise being a drop-out? Russian education is already so garbage.
Are you pro-Russian? Simple question. Just say you’re against Putler invading Ukraine, unless you’re actively for it?
Oh so now we trust polls. Got it.
Link or it didn’t happen.
Harris lost because of a lack of blue voters who didn’t get an exit poll.
There were more red there, and they claim to have voted because of economy because racism and hurting the other team wasn’t on the official ticket.
I bet you couldn’t even name a single example
There were two ways to vote for Trump. 1) Mark Trump on your ballot and turn it in, or 2) Not vote for Harris, not turn in a ballot at all.
Quit being coy, just take a bow and acknowledge your victory. You stood strong against genocide, and helped elect the only candidate who can’t be reasoned with and whose stated political policy was to SPEED UP THE GENOCIDE. Congrats! If you thought their blood wasn’t on your hands before, it absolutely is now.
There were two ways to vote for Trump. 1) Mark Trump on your ballot and turn it in, or 2) Not vote for Harris, not turn in a ballot at all.
By this logic a vote for Jill Stein would be a vote for Harris, lol. Question your political masters, this just isn’t logical at all.
Quit being coy, just take a bow and acknowledge your victory.
It is good for Democratic voters to have failed while supporting genocide. You shouldn’t support genocide and I shouldn’t have to lecture you like this. Be a good person.
You stood strong against genocide, and helped elect the only candidate who can’t be reasoned with and whose stated political policy was to SPEED UP THE GENOCIDE.
Israel already has unconditional support for its genocide and opened up two new fronts with the suppory of the Biden-Harris administration. Israel does not have one hsnd tied behind its back. The dominant global empire supports it materially and diplomatically.
Your lesser evil logic means nothing here. It is again just a thought terminating cliché from your political masters. Instead of justifying lesser-evil genocide, please go and inform yourself and work to help others.
Congrats! If you thought their blood wasn’t on your hands before, it absolutely is now.
Blood is on the hands of those committing and supporting genocide, not those who fifht against it. Look at how this political illogic has twisted your understanding of basic reality.
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There were two ways to vote for Trump. 1) Mark Trump on your ballot and turn it in, or 2) Not vote for Harris, not turn in a ballot at all.
In that case, Trump has won with an overwhelming majority in every election he’s ever run in, since nonvoters are like half the population and all of them count as voting for Trump.
Back here in reality, that’s not how it works.
Genocide Joe has been an established term for months.
Most dissidents have been banned from .world to keep the echo chamber functional.
you’ve got .ml and others, that’s where all the “dissidents” hang out. Must be hard to be a dissident when everyone agrees with you.
.ml has some trigger happy mods but nobody gets banned for criticizing the democratic party for supporting a genocide.
You can tell how much of an echo chamber it is here since there are no weapons restrictions for Trump to lift. Because the democrats did not place any.
.ml has some trigger happy mods but nobody gets banned for criticizing the democratic party for supporting a genocide.
Oh you don’t get banned for going along with Russian propaganda? Wow, weird huh.
But then you do get banned for pointing out Russian propaganda.
Here.
That’s @davel@lemmy.ml pushing against BlueSky, spreading his usual bullshit links about “Nazis”. He thinks Ukraine is filled with Nazis and Russia was right to invade it. Now “BlueSky is filled with Nazis”
It doesn’t take a genius to suss this out, but that’s what the poorly educated Russians don’t get. Or they rely on Americans being equally stupid, which is a good bet, honestly.
But for people with a normal amount of media/political literacy? Lol.
Everything I’m told by the state media is good and correct and everything would be fine if it weren’t for the underhanded secret
jewsrussians feeding dissentHey! Why am I being banned for following a user around and making personal attacks at them??
YOU’RE ALL JUST A BUNCH OF J-I MEAN RUSSIANS
You guys genuinely can’t argue like adults, it’s very irritating.
I’ve not followed anyone around nor have I made any personal attacks. Is “are you pro-Russian?” a personal attack in your opinion? I guess we’ll find out.
Are you pro-Russian?
Do you believe Russia has broken international law with their illegal war of aggression by invading Ukraine in February 2022?
(And I know you won’t answer any of that, you’ll just continue with the garbage quality propaganda. Which is to say utilising shitty rhetoric to push your agenda. Ie the childish nature of your wannabe argument. I wish you could see just how ridiculous it is, but you’re genuinely not able to. If you were, you’d be too ashamed to write that, lol.)
Stimulus: “You’re falling into the exact antisemetic tropes The Protocols of the Elders of Zion inspired in the late 18th century. You’re just replacing ‘Russian’ for ‘Jew’ for your paranoid delusions that act as thought stoppers for any dissent”
Response: “YOU SOUND LIKE A SECRET JEW”
True, anything vaguely pro Israel gets deleted and banned.
Wait, defending genocide is seen as a bad thing?
faints in bootlicker
Nuance and facts are seen as a bad thing.
I mean, assuming everyone on an instance has exactly the same views is kind of asinine. You won’t find me pushing that shit. And plenty of others from ml also.
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Bruh, I’m just here for the memes. But I can start commenting on political stuff more to even out my instance’s biases if that would help. Honestly haven’t paid much attention to which trolls were from where, but I’ll take your word for it…
I don’t understand the downvotes.
It’s fine, the internet will internet. Unless someone tells me what I’ve done wrong, I’m just gonna assume one downvote gave it the initial velocity for more downvotes. Trying to understand it beyond that will make you go crazy.
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Can we not use Fox News, please? They legally argued in court they are strictly entertainment and no reasonable person would believe them. In other words, they are literal propaganda.
But yeah, I hope the smug voters that sat this election out are happy…
That’s a misrepresentation of what they said. I hate Fox News too, but they argued them being called Fox News doesn’t make them exclusively a news company. Most of what they provide on their TV network is entertainment. Written Fox News is actually not the worst thing ever, though still conservative and far from my preference. I also think they still have an hour dedicated to news on the TV network, which is probably worse than having none because it gives cover for the rest of the garbage.
So, do you think that, in this case, the reporting is inaccurate? Or do you just wish they linked a non-Fox version of the same story?
You should default to assuming anything Fox says is untrue without a second source to verify. Because legally they can just say whatever they want and aren’t beholden to any type of journalistic standards because they aren’t news.
They have no more credibility than a random social media user.
Sure, okay, look at the source with skepticism - I certainly do. It just doesn’t make sense to not engage critically with the source. And, in this case, this story seems to be completely factual. Trump does intend to expand arms supply to Israel and ease restrictions. So, disbelieving the story in this case would not have brought you to the correct conclusion.
I guess “default to assuming it’s untrue” wasn’t how I should’ve put it.
If they told me the sky was blue, I wouldn’t say they’re wrong but I’d probably still look up just to be sure.
For sure. I totally agree!
Why are americans so fuckin dumb? Instead of pointing their fingers at millions of trump voters, they are pointing it at people with empathy for having anti-genocider stance.
It feels like they are just interested in finding a scapegoat to blame rather than asking the real questions, why did so many people voted for trump? Did kamala, despite having more funding, failed to convey her plan? What happened and why it happened and how can it be avoided?
Most likely what happened was inflation and a whole lotta price gouging, and people think Biden was to blame. The same people seem to think that donvict has a magic wand.
Biden’s response to the price gouging was a super bowl ad in which he asked those who were engaging in shrinkflation to cut it out.
It’s exactly this.
Trump promised easy solutions to the problems caused by the right, and by corporate oligarchs. They went along with it, and voted for him. They’re now in for a wild ride.
Yep. This is truly going to be the finding out stage for them, except, unfortunately, all of us are going to pay the price for their stupidity.
My wishful hope is that because some of the effects (i.e. prices after blanket tariffs) will be so demonstrably bad for their wellbeing, and will appear much quicker, rather than being delayed (i.e. inflation) that they will actually notice that their own side did something bad, and maybe the more moderate, single-issue voters (primarily those on the economy) will wise up and vote against them in 2028.
If we even have an election in 2028, that is.
It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to claim he isn’t to blame.
Yeah, like hearing corporate oligarchs bragging on earnings calls about being able to get away with price-gouging the American people because “Bidenflation”? Didn’t require any mental gymnastics, actually.
I’m sorry. You’re agreeing with me that he’s to blame for being complicit through his inaction? It sounds like you’re trying to disagree with me but you’re just giving concrete examples of why I’m right.
it was all about the eggs.
Instead of pointing their fingers at millions of trump voters, they are pointing it at people with empathy for having anti-genocider stance.
Trump voters are lost. We (incorrectly) expected those that aren’t dumb enough to directly vote for Trump to be smart enough to understand FPTP voting and act appropriately to avoid the worse outcome.
We were wrong.
What funny is, i never heard in news about democrats impose any restriction on israel weapon donation.
You see it is like the media reporting “hamas want a deal” even when hamas october 7 plan was aim at getting a deal to swap prisoner, agreed to Biden deal in July but then the US backtracked their statement.
i went to hamas website and the statement was “Trump should listen to what the American people want”
I believe all these post are by Zionist to create a division in supporting ending the massacres.
Why are americans so fuckin dumb? Instead of pointing their fingers at millions of trump voters, they are pointing it at people with empathy for having anti-genocider stance.
It’s because of do-gooder derogotation, and generally not caring about winning or learning from mistakes so long as they can save face and protect their egos.
Do-gooder derogation is a phenomenon where a person’s morally motivated behavior leads to them being perceived negatively by others.
One possible reason for do-gooder derogation is ‘anticipated moral reproach’. This describes a threat to one’s moral standing and to their sense of self-worth.
Research suggests that since people are highly sensitive to any criticism or challenge to their morals, they are more likely to put down the source of this ‘threat’.
It feels like they are just interested in finding a scapegoat to blame rather than asking the real questions, why did so many people voted for trump? Did kamala, despite having more funding, failed to convey her plan? What happened and why it happened and how can it be avoided?
You answered these questions in your very first line.
Why are americans so fuckin dumb?
What restrictions?
Currently, U.S. restrictions include an embargo on a certain weapons shipment and limitations on various combat-related equipment,
Read the article?
Implying that answers any questions?
only the ones that were asked
It really doesn’t. Especially when Biden already saying they aren’t continuing any…
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-aid-entering-israel-us-deadline-rcna176737
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What restrictions?
I don’t think surph_ninja was implying support in their comment, more just that the Biden Admin’s restrictions are sadly near nonexistant to begin with…
You’re not a very intelligent person are you?
Having a hissy fit in public is not the greatest look, my friend.
Time for the 2nd stage of FAaFO for all those that fucked around.
No both sides were not equally bad choices for trying to stop the slaughter of non-combatants.
Non-combatants have been getting slaughtered none stop for over a year now with the help of the Biden/Harris admin.
If they were the better choice they could have demonstrated that, with actions not words.
Bidens 30 day deadline came and went and nothing changed because Biden doesn’t care about innocent life and the dem leadership are all in the pocket of aipac https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/11/biden-israel-palestine-gaza-aid-30-day-warnings-blinken-toothless/
Not going to debate what Biden (since as VP Harris has no actual power to do anything) has done or not done nor your opinions of what he’s done or not done. I do take issue that you think he doesn’t care, at a human level I just don’t think that’s true. What he’s done to express that humanity given geopolitical realities is the real issue.
But anyone who actually thinks Trump cares at all about innocent life, or anyone’s life but his own, or cares about the legacy he leaves behind may find themselves rethinking that opinion in the coming year.
Now that the election is over, I truly do hope something good gets done. We of course won’t know what Harris could have accomplished, but we’ll certainly know if Trump tries and if he succeeds. Keeping fingers crossed.
ETA: I’ll just drop this here https://www.reuters.com/world/us/muslims-who-voted-trump-upset-by-his-pro-israel-cabinet-picks-2024-11-15/
I do take issue that you think he doesn’t care, at a human level I just don’t think that’s true.
How would you have any read on his personal feelings at all? And why would you care that they’re being besmirched? His actions are what matter to the world and the only path by which any of us has to judge him.
You’re right I have no more intimate knowledge of his internal feelings than you do. I have however seen enough humanity in him to believe he has more empathy than Trump who has a very well documented history of narcissism bordering on psychopathy.
As for my “care” of his humanity being besmirched, I don’t actually. My issue was with your questionable assertion that he doesn’t care and the implication that maybe (but maybe not) you actually think Trump cares more.
As for his actions as the president of the united states, who has the full weight of international geopolitics, national politics, and an election to consider, I’d say the job is no where near as simple as you’d like it to seem and as much as I hate (or don’t hate but am resigned) to admit it, there is a limit to what the United States can actually do to make a difference in Gaza that might not have other undesirable results.
First, I’m not the guy you were replying to.
Second, there may be a limit to what the United States can do in Gaza, but we know for sure Biden didn’t ever even try to reach it. It’s a much more strained interpretation to believe a highly empathic person cared deeply about the harm he was causing and did practically nothing to reduce it than to believe someone who has spent their entire life pursuing greater personal power, including multiple times where he supported wars in the Middle East, might be a bit of a sociopath. Making the former work requires inventing these unobservable stresses and reasons to explain why a seemingly immoral response is in fact secretly moral, while the latter lines up with our general understanding of people at the highest levels of power and the plain observations. The morality of a genocide is not complex.
Didn’t say what was or was not moral or the complexity of genocide. I said that diplomacy is much more complex than either side wants to admit when they are emotionally invested (for very good reasons!) in painting the other side of the argument as heartless / savage / inhuman.
Regardless, my central premise hasn’t changed: I hope the whole situation can be brought to a peaceful conclusion as fast as possible with a framework for lasting peace. BUT, I don’t think Trump is the one to make it happen, I don’t even think the US can actually make it happen, and I worry there are a lot of US voters who will suddenly be realizing the Leopard actually ate THEIR face. But hey, maybe Huckabee and Stefanik will decide the Palestinians are real and care about them more than Biden or Harris and Trump won’t lift all military restrictions on Israel on the 1st day in office like the referenced article [shrug] I actually do hope so, but I obviously am not holding my breath.
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It is possible for two things to be true at the same time. Sure Kamala might have lost for the reasons you suggest. And it can also be true that another group is about to Find Out what Trump is going to do. Just the last few days alone are giving a lot of evidence that the Palestinian people are not going to be better off with Trump in office.
As for it not being strategic, well, that depends if you think the strategy was ONLY to win the election as opposed to trying to do what he thought best in a horrific and complex situation; and ONLY if you think there was an alternative course of action that would have actually won the election.
I’m not sure why folks are only hearing, or responding to, the coulda/woulda/shoulda side of the conversation. A side for which I haven’t really disagreed with in spirit, namely yes Biden/Harris surely knew there were electoral consequences to their actions, among other much sadder consequences, but you continue to ignore the actual topic of conversation … What the future holds.
Okay I can take a guess why [shrug] but such is life. Feel free to have one more reply, I’m done beating a dead leopard.
Did anyone tell the Palestinians that this would have been the same and to not worry? We had brave, brave people who sat on their hands and did nothing in their name, so I hope they’re grateful for their “sacrifice.”
They were braver than that, friend! They took to the internet in droves, and in every comment thread they showed everyone how principled they were, commenting “I ReFUsE to VoTE 4 GENOCIDE!!!”, spreading their message to either vote 3rd party or don’t vote at all. They worked hard AF to spread their apathy far and wide!
This type of person doesn’t give a fuck about actual Palestinians. It’s just a way to make themselves seem virtuos and ideologically pure.
That they did. I’m sure Netanyahu is grateful.
You could literally ask them yourself. They quite explicitly refused to vote for you and your genocidal racist candidate.
You brave, brave keyboard warrior who would get their ass beat if you said any of this in person
Lmao I would absolutely square up against a fascist. Don’t threaten me with a good time. See, I’m an adult. I understand the work doesn’t stop at the vote, but I know how important it is to do what I can, even if it’s small. And I know that giving the government the equivalent of a cold shoulder allows shit to happen. Evil happens when good people do nothing, and, unlike you I guess, I refuse to do nothing. I’m involved in my local government and plan to keep working. I’d say you should do the same, but I think we both know that ain’t happening. But I hope you feel good doing nothing but bad mouthing those braver than you on the internet. Just down vote me and be on your way. 💅🏾
It’s a very nazi thing to accuse your victims of being fascists.
The more common correlary was to sit on one’s hands and provide consent for genocide or to try to vote shame on support of genocidal candidates.
Though I think you know that those who stand with Palestine tend to be more politically active than your typical Democratic voter. I know I don’t see your type in the streets or running education programs or building connections to support Palestinians directly.
Oh my, my type? Goodness, you know, I didn’t see your type either now that I think about it! When I went to protests and meetings in my community, I’m afraid I didn’t see you there, I only saw people who we trying to actually help people, you know, the ones that knew they were between and rock and a hard place, but actually tried to not hand the government over to a blood thirsty racist, while making sure the community was informed in what steps to take should he win and are now continuing to rally and make their voices heard instead of “not VoTiNg fOr GeNoCiDe” which, you know, kind of got us here.
But perhaps it’s scary to stand for a belief off of the internet, but I’m unfamiliar with the feeling because my mom didn’t raise a bitch.
Don’t worry, we’ll handle it, sport. You just stay safe inside, okay? ♥️
Oh my, my type? Goodness, you know, I didn’t see your type either now that I think about it! When I went to protests and meetings in my community
Speaking about this as if they are over and not something ongoing says a lot. I’m leaning towards this just being a lie.
, I’m afraid I didn’t see you there, I only saw people who we trying to actually help people, you know, the ones that knew they were between and rock and a hard place, but actually tried to not hand the government over to a blood thirsty racist, while making sure the community was informed in what steps to take should he win and are now continuing to rally and make their voices heard instead of “not VoTiNg fOr GeNoCiDe” which, you know, kind of got us here.
I have never seen a pro-Palestinian protest with that message. That just sounds like you projecting your armchair liberal takes onto other people.
The people who organize pro-Palestinian protests are socialists and allied Palestinian groups, occasionally JVP. And while JVP is milquetoast and weak, even they aren’t that mealy-mouthed.
But perhaps it’s scary to stand for a belief off of the internet, but I’m unfamiliar with the feeling because my mom didn’t raise a removed.
I wonder what slur you used while calling yourseld a good person.
Don’t worry, we’ll handle it, sport. You just stay safe inside, okay? ♥️
It id also telling that this is the only part of my comment that you replied to.
What slur? Now you really have loss me. People in my community were realistic about what we could get done on 11/5. We didn’t call anyone a slur, we’re not Republicans. Naive? Foolish? Maybe, but what slur? I’m not calling myself a “Good” person, but I’m am calling myself a politically involved and empathetic beyond what is comfortable for me. I’m sure you also feel like you’re a good person, and maybe you are, I only know you from this interaction. But I’m at peace with what I did on 11/5 because I didn’t stop working.
I’m fine being down voted knowing that I did and will continue to do what I can. Just like I’m sure you’re fine feeling that you did and/or are doing the same.
I’m sorry, I’m just so angry that we are in this position, and that it’s even worse. It’s very, very frustrating (though I’m sure it’s the same for you).
Still not sure why you think we’d be walking around calling people slurs though 👀
Edit: Whoops, their account is gone I think? Sorry. I swear I didn’t report. 🙏🏾
But you clearly used a slur that was removed
Ah! It was the word “b*tch.” I thought he was saying a racial slur. Didn’t even notice 😂
What restrictions?, the article doesnt mention any, Bidens ultimatum came and went with no action.
Both sides were for unconditional aid to Israel, kamala may have added some laments about loss of life but she repeatedly said restrictions on military were off the table. Until someone can point to me a concrete policy that kamala had in her platform that was different from trump then yeah both sides are equally bad on this issue. Trump is worse on a lot of others but to a Palestinian they are both bad.
The article has a vague statement trying to make it sound like there were lots of restrictions, but I think it’s just the 2000 lb. bombs, and maybe some sort of guidance system (IIRC). Because it’s a fucking Fox News article for some reason.
Currently, U.S. restrictions include an embargo on a certain weapons shipment and limitations on various combat-related equipment, even if they do not involve explosive ordnance.
Allowing them is definitely more bad, but it’s going from like 95% of maximum complicity to 100%.
The only restrictions are stuff we don’t give to anyone. By the end of Trump’s term I will not be surprised if Israel has an Ohio class submarine.
We’ll see how many shipments of white phosphorus get sent now.
Me trying to find the restrictions in question just like me trying to find Biden’s red line and also just like me trying to find Blinken’s endzone and also me trying to find the consequences of Israel’s actions for the past 13 months.
What a joke lol
This comment has some real manic desperation energy. Are you ok?
Posting memes in response to news like this… You’re showing everyone your ass, moron.
Take a breath, and maybe do some introspection.
I see that you have made no such comments towards the memers in this thread trying to crap on those who won’t vote for genocide.
I know this is a disgusting thought but, assuming there are ever free elections in the United States again, Gaza won’t be an issue in 2028. Palestine will just be a memory.
It’s already a memory for plenty. All the cool kids are upset over a squirrel killed in New York
The outrage is so selective. Democrats kill peanut, infringing on some guys right to have wild animals but you don’t hear a peep about the GOP sheriff who arrested a lady because her kid walked to the store. She is facing a year in prison.
I hear about that woman getting jail time for that on the regular, I don’t know what you are talking about, I see it one headlines from mainstream sources too.
Also, people can be mad about multiple things at once
I’m not talking about the news, I’m talking about the people who manufacture outrage about peanut being silent about the blatant trampling of this families liberties because it doesn’t advance a narrative that it’s all the democrats fault.
We operate in different circles then. I haven’t seen the squirrel in days now, and I am still getting people discussing the woman getting arrested.
They’ll just move on to Iran
Perhaps, but Iran has oil and a closer relationship with Russia.
Oh for sure. I wonder how many of the 5.5M they started with are even left.
Wait, the ~14,000 dead children complied with American restrictions? The damaging or destruction of over 80% of all structures in Gaza was within restrictions? Interesting. It’s honestly going to be tough for the victims of genocide to tell the difference. It actually may benefit Israel’s victims since America is likely to massively lose influence in the world with the clown car pulling into Washington. Many nations who likely want to push back against the genocide are under huge American pressure to stay silent and complicit, hopefully as America loses influence that could change.
Not saying that will occur, just an opinion.
There aren’t any restrictions, unless they mean the stuff we don’t give to anyone, not even NATO.
All Netanyahu needs is a half dozen F-22s to finally accurately target Hamas!
