cross-posted from: https://sh.itjust.works/post/2916091
Former US President Donald Trump has been charged with attempting to overturn his 2020 election loss in the state of Georgia.
He and 18 others have been indicted on counts that include racketeering in a 41-charge document issued by a Fulton County grand jury.
The indictment marks the fourth time Mr Trump has been criminally charged this year.
He has denied the accusations in all cases.
Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis launched an investigation in February 2021 into allegations of election meddling against Mr Trump and his associates.
The list of defendants indicted late on Monday night includes former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, former White House lawyer John Eastman and a former justice department official, Jeffrey Clark.
The indictment says the alleged co-conspirators “knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of Trump”.
The charge sheet also refers to the defendants as a “criminal organization”, accusing them of a number of crimes, including:
False statements and writings Impersonating a public officer Forgery Filing false documents Influencing witnesses Computer trespass Conspiracy to defraud the state Theft and perjury.The most serious charge, violating the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (Rico) Act, is punishable by a maximum of 20 years in prison.
The act - designed to help take down organised criminal syndicates like the mafia - helps prosecutors connect the dots between underlings who broke laws and those who gave them marching orders.
Happy 4th Indictment Day for anyone else who celebrates!
I don’t think he knows about 5th indictment, Pip
Do you just post this on every thread?
Those Grand Jurors put their own lives and those of their loved ones in the crosshairs of maga (their names are public in the indictment).
Huge respect to them, they put their asses on the line for this, and it must have been a little frightening thinking about the harassment coming their way.
👏🏻
Holy shit, that’s how it works? I would have assumed that information would be sealed for a number of years.
I wonder if any of them have already received threats.
Yeah it’s wild.
Well said
This is an obvious exaggeration, but I can’t help but feel like we’re witnessing a death match between American democracy and the Republican Party.
Nah, just the justice system processing another wanna be gangster that went on a crime spree. everything happening right now, across the board, is a direct consequence of his decisions and actions. Republicans choose to foolishly hitch themselves to him, personally.
The justice system isn’t well known for doing anything to the rich
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I’m a simple human. Someone reminds me of Four Seasons Total Landscaping, I laugh and I upvote. ⬆️
We indeed live in interesting times, I too am curious to see how it all resolves.
Perhaps Drumpf’s usefulness has been deemed to be ended, by those vastly more wealthy and powerful than he.
If that was the case, they’d just instruct McConnell and McCarthy to dump him.
Slight correction: It is well known for doing nothing to the rich. A distinction as subtle as it is important…and telling.
I don’t intend to be a negative Nancy about it all but I expect everything will fall through some crack or slip through some loophole or…just get looked away from, in the end. It’s a pattern I’ve seen again and again with this man.
Sort of. No matter what happens, Republicans aren’t going anywhere. Democracy might.
It’s not a death match but it’s going to be a significant threshold where democracy gets further eroded or protected. Hopefully, it could be the end of Trump as a politician but who knows?
Keep in mind the Republicans are evolving beyond Trump, and this New Right is a real threat.
Case in point, that story earlier this week about Republican thinks tanks funding anti-education, anti-trans, anti-race mixing efforts, which stokes their culture war in ways that have and will continue to provoke real people to act in violent and harmful ways.
I think you’re absolutely correct.
This sets the dangerous precedent that sedition is some kind of crime.
Now any person that orchestrates a criminal conspiracy to undermine democracy and install themselves as President could get charged. Is that really the America we want?
Wait, I don’t get it, isn’t it confirmed that Trump tried to overturn the Georgia election by calling up the Georgia Secretary of State on the phone and asking him to find votes?
Can you plead not guilty to stabbing a guy if a bunch of people watch you stab that guy?
How does the presumption of innocence legally survive when it’s recorded and confirmed that you are guilty?
You can plead ‘not guilty’ even if you were arrested holding the bloody knife, its just not going to do you much good.
As for the presumption of innocence, as DA Willis put it in her statement this evening, an indictment is just a series of allegations, its up to the prosecutor and team to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Going back to the knife analogy, you’re going into the case where you’re legally presumed innocent, but the bloody knife/witnesses will show that you stabbed that guy.
Everyone pleads “not guilty” the first go around, even clearly guilty people, even people who plan to plead guilty.
You can always change a “not guilty” plea to “guilty” (ie, plea deal, etc). It gives your lawyers more time to get a handle on the case, get paperwork together, work with the prosecutors, etc.
Ah, thank you, this is the answer I was looking for. Appreciate it.
Very concise and specific.
So they only way to forfeit the person of innocence is by confessing to the alleged crime?
You could confess to the police, and then still plead not guilty. As others have said, you can later change your plea if you and your lawyer decide that’s the best course of action.
Thanks, the timeline of the plea was definitely sticking in my brain. That’s fascinating
The presumption of innocence is really important because it reduces the chance for abusing the prosecutorial process (of course that does still happen). Prosecutors must show beyond a reasonable doubt that a person is guilty. That’s a high bar to clear, but it gets easier when the defendant builds you a staircase.
Every defendant deserves the right to plead guilty, even this criminal.
That’s what I mean by “presumption of innocence”, yes.
Does the presumption of innocence still apply even if the crime has already been confirmed to have happened?
If someone steals a candy bar right in front of a clerk on camera and gets arrested and for some reason the case goes to trial, can they still plead not guilty?
Even though that crinee is confirmed to have been perpetrated by that person?
What are they circumstances under which the presumption of innocence is waived or forfeited?
Does the presumption of innocence still apply even if the crime has already been confirmed to have happened?
Yes. The crime (and the criminal) legally hasn’t been “confirmed”. The point of a trial is to “confirm” it.
For example, there’s probably at least 50 million people who believe no crime occurred.
They’re WRONG, of course, but the point of the trial is to prove them wrong.
Got it now, thanks.
I had it in my head that there was some way to forfeit that presumption of innocence, but couldn’t imagine what that way was.
But apparently there is not. Thanks
Yes, because theoretically someone that strongly resembles the candy bar stealer got mixed up in the whole deal and got arrested instead. I get where you’re coming from, but being able to defend yourself no matter what is a good thing.
I don’t think you get where I’m coming from, but I appreciate the effort.
I think you mean plead innocent. I mean everyone deserves both, but in this case there’s no doubt trump’s got the right to plead guilty
There’s no such thing as pleading innocent. The court will either find you guilty or not guilty. The court will not, and in fact cannot, find you innocent. Only not guilty. Or in most cases, “not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt”.
Sorry, “not guilty” was what I meant
Well, you see, first amendment and all that.
Trump just happened to be recorded while saying out loud some random thoughts he happened to have at that particular moment.
He wasn’t telling anyone to do anything, and his words were not targeted to anyone in particular.
Just because he happened to be on the phone with someone is completely coincidental and totally unrelated.
So, any attempt to charge Trump with a crime would mean that you are ONLY criminalizing THOUGHTS and SPEECH.
Checkmate.
This is basically the explanation Trump used in regards to the recent threat he made on Truth Social about going after anyone that goes after him.
Lol there’s so much more than the one call, they got literally months of records in evidence. Could read it, or just watch the DA conference for a summary
Because that’s the way it is man…
I can live-stream myself performing a public execution in front of a crowded stadium full of people, and plead not-guilty. And the presumption of innocence before the court means I can do that as much as I want regardless how obviously guilty I may be.
And like it or not, that’s better than the alternative. A presumption of guilt before the court opens oneself to much more easily be wrongfully imprisoned for crimes you didn’t commit. Not accounting for obvious injustices that have occurred due to shortcomings and corruption in the system, these initial principals give us the best shot at having a system that’s less likely to fuck us than not.
So the presumption of innocence is only forfeited by a confession, full stop?
A conviction is only supposed to happen if it’s proven “beyond a reasonable doubt” the defendant is guilty of the crime(s) they’re charged with. They’re “presumed innocent” until they’re afforded due process (a trial, plea, etc) by the court.
A “not guilty” plea essentially just means “I want a trial”.
A confession isn’t a plea – it could have been coerced, the result of misunderstanding, mental impairment, etc. A trial gives the defense the opportunity to make those arguments.
Okay, a not guilty plea being a request for a trial clicked into place for me with your explanation, thanks.
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For those of us who aren’t American and want to at least have a semblance of a hope of keeping up with it there’s a wikipedia page for the indictments.
For those of us who aren’t American and want to at least somehow keep track of what’s going on in US politics I’d suggest what the fuck just happened today
Is it true that if he’s found guilty of these charges he can’t be pardoned?
I think its that the governor can’t pardon him, Georgia has a pardon board that would be able to pardon him if they so chose.
Yeah, but the really cool thing (in this particular case, not in general) about Georgia’s pardon regulations are:
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You must have completed all sentence(s) at least five (5) years prior to applying.
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You must have lived a law-abiding life during the five (5) years prior to applying.
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You cannot have any pending charges.
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All fines must be paid in full.
I can see Trump having problems with every single one of requirements, plus he can’t even apply until five years after he’s served his sentence.
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eh, prison might be just what he needs… big tough guy like that… probably just get stronger inside…
I can see the memes already: Punished Trump
He’ll come out like The Raven.
In other words: this is a pathway for a reformed person to scrub a past felony off of their record, rather than a get-out-of-jail free card
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He could not be federally pardoned, no. The State of Georgia can also pardon individuals of state crimes, but this requires the applicant has paid all fines amongst other requirements like being a law abusing citizen for over five years after serving their sentence. The governor cannot pardon.
other requirements like being a law abusing citizen for over five years.
Trump has been a law abusing citizen for his whole life!
and Trump supporters would like to have anyone who says that abused
As I understand it yes. State crimes cannot be pardoned by the Federal level.
Correct, because they are state charges. Presidents can only pardon federal crimes.
The President can’t pardon state charges like these. The governor of Georgia could.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis launched an investigation in February 2021 into allegations of election meddling against Mr Trump and his associates.
Mr Trump, currently the frontrunner in the Republican Party’s race to pick its next candidate for the White House, said the investigation by Ms Willis, a Democrat, was politically motivated.
“This latest co-ordinated strike by a biased prosecutor in an overwhelmingly Democrat jurisdiction not only betrays the trust of the American people, but also exposes the true motivation driving their fabricated accusations,” said the statement.
There was confusion earlier on Monday when a list of a criminal charges against Mr Trump appeared on a Fulton County website before the grand jury had even voted to return an indictment.
Mr Trump has already been charged by federal prosecutors in Washington DC with conspiring to overturn the 2020 election, which he lost to President Joe Biden, a Democrat.
At least eight “fake electors”, who signed a bogus certificate claiming Mr Trump won the election in that state, have reached immunity deals in the case after agreeing to interviews with Fulton County prosecutors.
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Trump Indicted in Georgia. Prosecutors Accuse Trump of ‘Criminal Enterprise’ to Overturn Election (gift article) (consider sharing other articles here).
It’s never RICO, until it’s RICO.
I thought a sitting President couldn’t be charged… /s
Please post this in News instead. There’s far too much of this stuff posted already.
So this is up to 119 felony counts total?
Trump only got ~13 of the 41 charges based on my count.
