Summary
Former CIA Director Leon Panetta warned that Trump’s return to the White House could embolden Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, giving him a “blank check” in the Middle East and increasing the risk of war with Iran.
Panetta expressed concern that Trump would support Netanyahu’s aggressive stance against Iran without restraint, potentially worsening regional instability.
Panetta also predicted Trump might allow Russia to retain parts of Ukraine if he returns to office, though he doubted Trump’s negotiation skills.
He criticized Trump’s approach to foreign policy, suggesting Trump would be inclined to “capitulate” to authoritarian leaders, which may not sit well with some Republicans.
Congratulations, idealists. You definitely stopped the genocide by refusing to vote for Harris and urging others to do likewise. A+ job.
Oh he’ll help end the genocide alright. You can’t genocide a people that’s already wiped off the planet.
ukraine is gonna get ‘helped’ similarly. putin will have a free pass once the u.s. aid stops. i don’t think the other nato countries or the e.u. can cover that, especially long-term.
I hope as soon as US aid stops, they launch everything they have at major Russian cities.
right? they’re holding back for conditional western aid. as soon as the aid ends those conditions mean nothing.
Why would this be different from right now? If they could feasibly end the war they way, they absolutely would, and id absolutely condone it.
Because as far as I know Ukrain hasn’t been committing war crimes with western supplied arms.
I’ve always said they could ignore all conditions by saying there’s Hamas tunnels under the Kremlin.
I’m pretty sure it’s the most documented war of all time by now, we’d know. The Israeli war is much younger and it was readily apparent when the war crimes started. I’m pretty sure that’s why a lot of countries like to go dark from the internet when they kick up their bullshit.
I think the EU will change. If Ukraine falls, territory grabs from Poland, Finland and Hungary are next. Those are actually EU constituents.
Hungary will not leave the EU btw. Orbán’s days are numbered, what with the Tisza overflowing.
Y’all are thinking pretty small, Putin won’t just have a free pass about us aid, Putin has a pass to our entire structure. Their military might be shit but their Intel apparatus is not at all.
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yeah shame that. maybe kamala should of thought about that before committing herself to a genocide joe allowed.
I truly cannot grasp how uninformed one has to be to claim to be for Palestinians but think helping Trump’s odds was strategically better. Such profound ignorance is on par with maga, themselves.
On another note I want absolutely nothing to do with Mehdi Hasan. I supported him for quite some time but he got tunnel vision to such a degree he ended up thinking completely irrationally and contributing to the problem. He’s venturing into Jill Stein territory for me.
thats okay, you just need to look at harris and the dnc for your answers. apparently streams of articles, local representatives speaking up, members of the diplomatic core speaking out and they amazing decided that ‘yes, genocide is the answer to our electoral struggles’
it is definitely baffling in a tight race tossing 25 electoral points in the trash could be construed as a ‘good decision for palestinians.’ but here we are and thats what they did.
Now the world is going to suffer because of their hubris. enjoy. maybe next time tell your candidate to get a backbone to do the right thing and you need to grasp human nature.
go check out democracynow gaza section. maybe you can get some perspective on exactly how kamala/biden and general media have been gaslighting you. Everytime a hamas leader was murdered and harris would say ‘now we can achieve a ceasefire’ she was gaslighting you. a ceasefire with the release of hostages had been agreed to by hamas for months since may. Every time she said she would work towards a ceasefire, she was gaslighting you.
the palestinians were fucked no matter who won.
But harris had the option to potentially win if she was willing to:
- throw biden under the bus policy wise.
- commit to upholding american laws w/ respect to isreal.
- commit to keeping kahn as head of FTC.
- commit and campaign on actually fighting corporations.
but noooo. its the voters fault for harris being absolutely dog shit both morally and policy wise.
Binary choice.
Either Trump or Harris would win.
Harris better on literally every issue from climate change and LGBTQ+ rights and Women’s rights, to Ukraine and yes even marginally Gaza, itself.
We had a choice to help one or the other, and we chose the guy who is worse on every one of these issues. The GOP and Putin thank you for your service.
At the end of the day, these uncommitted voters contributed to the problem because they lacked the capacity to think strategically in their voting and lacking comprehension of the FPTP voting system we have. They seem to lack the fundamental understanding that there was a competing electoral group that Harris needed to obtain, like the large Jewish community in these key battleground states like Pennsylvania. Damned if she did; damned if she didn’t.
Golly, it’s almost like there’s a reason why Musk dumped $75 million dollars in attack ads with directly opposite messages, targeting both Muslim and Jewish communities in Pennsylvania at the same time? Were you aware of this? Evidently not.
So while Harris pushed for more aid into Gaza, sought a two-state solution, sought a permanent ceasefire, tell me… What did Trump promise? Oh yeah… “Finish the job.” Again, good luck.
No, I’m about 10 years ahead of you with the Democracy Now and 3rd party crap. I’ve been down that road long ago, my friend. Hopefully one day you’ll wise up, too.
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Your argument — hiding behind a counter-factual impossible to prove — is an old one. Cap it off with a Post Hoc fallacy, why don’t ya?
Educate yourself on the basic fallacies, and perhaps you’ll gain the prerequisite critical-thinking skills to have a good faith discussion.
(But boy, Palestinians are going to be ever so grateful for the uncommitted vote for the next 4+ years, LOL)
Okay my man look at the margins. The anti-genocide people could’ve all voted and it wouldn’t have flipped a single state outside of Michigan. And the thing is: Harris lost before Michigan even finished counting. So yeah, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.
The anti-genocide people could’ve all voted and it wouldn’t have flipped a single state outside of Michigan.
See, if you’d said the anti-genocide people who protest voted could’ve all voted for Harris, you might’ve had a point.
But turnout in this election for the Democratic candidate was significantly decreased, and an uncertain number of those were anti-genocide.
Abstaining gave Trump the presidency. Abstaining for what reason varies, but Gaza was clearly an issue for some to stay home.
This is one of the excuses they are giving rather than accept any culpability whatsoever. “Even if we voted for Harris, Trump would still have won.”
Culpability for what? Nothing is forcing Biden and Harris to support such atrocities. Nothing forced them to abandon the left and the working class and cater to the right at every opportunity. If you want to point fingers, why don’t you start with the actual candidate leading the campaign, who consciously made all these decisions, and the party leaders backing her?
Was 2016 not enough of a wakeup call? Was the near loss in 2020 not a wakeup call? Here we are in 2024, repeating the same old song and dance, and people are still digging their heels in thinking that moving further and further right is a winning strategy for the Democrats and it’s everyone else’s fault when it doesn’t work again and again and again.
Maybe the party leadership will finally pull their heads out of their asses after this, but I won’t hold my breath. They’ll probably pick someone like Joe Manchin to run in 2028 and then wonder where it all went wrong once again when he loses to someone like Ted Cruz or Ron DeSantis.
Culpability for what?
Maybe handing all three branches of a nuclear power to literal fascists?
Maybe the party leadership will finally pull their heads out of their asses after this, but I won’t hold my breath. They’ll probably pick someone like Joe Manchin to run in 2028…
You really don’t grasp what has has transpired here do you? You think that those of us who have been ringing the alarms are just overreacting and it’s going to be business as usual?
Maybe handing all three branches of a nuclear power to literal fascists?
I did that? The Supreme Court was already under control of the fascists because the DNC rolled over and allowed the Republicans to take the nomination away from Obama a year before the election. They again rolled over and allowed Trump to nominate yet another justice weeks before the election. In my district we voted in a blue congresswoman and had no senators on the ballot. Are these losses around the rest of the country my fault, too, or the fault of the people running those campaigns?
You really don’t grasp what has has transpired here do you? You think that those of us who have been ringing the alarms are just overreacting and it’s going to be business as usual?
How exactly were you ringing the alarm bells? By telling everyone to vote for Biden and then Harris? By telling everyone the obvious about what a piece of shit Trump is? How did that work out for us?
I’ve been ringing the alarm bells about how terrible the Dems have been performing and all the shitty policy they’ve been supporting (genocide, the rich, the right) and got so much pushback. I’ve been called a shill, a republican in disguise, an idiot, and everything else under the sun and look how things turned out for us. You supported a losing strategy from a party full of neoliberals that doesn’t give two shits about you or anyone else and now you want to point fingers. As I said before, how could it not be more clear after losing or nearly losing this many elections in a row that the DNC and their leadership is the problem?
Culpability for you supporting the atrocities.
That’s right, you. By helping get Trump into office since you and others refused to “vote for genocide,” you have let the guy who told Netanyahu to “finish the job” on national TV to take office. The same guy who is going to start more genocides- of brown and queer people- in the U.S.
That is your fault because you were too ideologically self-righteous to do anything about it.
I don’t want to hear any American voter who didn’t vote for Harris to claim anything about being anti-genocide. Because it’s a fucking lie. You can lie to yourself all you want, but if you lie about that to me, I’m calling you out.
Abstaining gave Trump the presidency. Abstaining for what reason varies, but Gaza was clearly an issue for some to stay home.
Yes, and I’m saying that Gaza wasn’t an issue for enough people to matter. Harris needed Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan to win, and while I can see pro-Palestinian votes swinging Michigan I simply doubt there were enough of them in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to matter. If you think otherwise, then you have more faith in the American people than me I guess.
This not to mention down-ballot congressional races.
Gave them everything they fucking wanted. This country is cooked.
Please give me the numbers of these in every swing state along with how they were determined.
There is no way for you, or anyone, to know how many people abstained from voting over any one issue, 🤡
Michigan and Wisconsin, two states representing 25 pts. If you don’t look at the fucking margins in a neck and neck race, yeah you fucking lose. Harris failed to make any changes to policy throughout the campaign despite being underwater the entire fucking time.
This loss is entirely on her and the DNC.
“They” weren’t persons holding “real” opinions, I’m afraid. Just as the russians calling for “russophobia” 2 months prior to the special genocidal operation
Then he will be held to the same account Harris was.
What are you even talking about? Harris is the Vice President. Exactly what do you think her job responsibilities and powers are?
She said she would not have changed a single decision that was made during the Biden administration. Biden said that she was in 100% agreement with every decision made. Which means she agreed to the current conditions
I really hope you find solace in the idea that Harris and Trump would be equally bad for the world as Trump throws America into the garbage and tries to take the planet with it.
Do you have any idea how much CO2 biden’s proxy wars have dumped into the atmosphere? How many chip manufacturers were given environmental exemptions for chip manufacturing? The actions from Democrats mirror the actions from Republicans. The only difference is that Republicans say all of those things out loud
Again, I hope you find solace in the idea that Trump and Harris are exactly the same when things get really awful. I’m sure you’ll feel much better about yourself not voting for her.
Block him, Squid. He’s doing this in every thread and you need to put this energy towards more important things.
I find solace in not allowing the continued rightward march of Democrats. Liberals are 100% to blame for our current conditions for never holding their own people accountable. At their current pace the DNC will be on par with people like McConnell in a few years.
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Dude, you really need to just move on from Biden and Kamala. They lost and aren’t going to be in office much longer. Trump is the threat.
And once he takes office, he will get the same type of scrutiny from me that Biden and Harris has. until January 20th the focus is on Biden and Harris.
Tell us you don’t know what a VP does without telling us you don’t know what a VP does.
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Stoppig the genocide… Who started it?
Israel. What’s your point?
Cool so Trump won’t be responsible for stopping the genocide either. Everything falls on Israel.
No shit. That has nothing to do with this discussion.
Why did you bring up the genocide if you do not believe the American president has any responsibility for it? Biden has funded 70% of the cost of the genocide.
Gosh I don’t know, maybe because a huge number of people decided to allow in a rapist fascist dictator who is going to conduct his own two genocides domestically, thinking their protest vote or their protest abstention would totally teach the Democrats a lesson regarding Israel?
Have you spent the week in a cave?
What did you do to stop the genocide?
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We didn’t allow anything. harris failed to win our votes. direct your ire correctly. I’ve been telling you this for 2 months. you’re still failing at basic reasoning on how voting works.
Palestinians are dead either way unless harris committed to stopping israel. and she wouldn’t. she threw out the 25 electoral points Michigian and Wisconsin represent as a result. She failed to run a campaign on policies that would win her the election.
We don’t owe you dweebs anything. You repeatedly fail to realize that people won’t help you when you don’t help them. and the DNC hasn’t done shit for the working class or the arab community and they just fucking burnt a bridge that’ll likely be impossible to rebuild.
You want peoples support for ukraine, LGBT, etc? learn you need to build connections with others to get support. esp when you’re pet projects are also minority groups.
And a reminder: your jews for peace work is completely ineffectual when it comes to the president/congress supplying arms to israel. most of your work has ridden on the coattails of arab groups pushing their initiatives. So while stopping the settlement funding is a grand idea; by the time you managed to do it the palestinians would have already been dead or gone.
Yep the Dems are accountable for nothing, but peaple who refused to vote for genociders are accountable for Trump’s action sure. Keep blindly following your party.
Maybe there’s plenty of accountability to go around and you deserve some too.
Also, please tell me which party is my party. I would like to know which political party I am registered with, please. With evidence, of course. Unless you’re trolling a moderator.
I am accountable for what ? For what the new president might do (when i clearly didn’t vote for him). You re litteraly criticising peaple for not voting Harris, stop the Whataboutisme. “Unless you’re trolling a moderator” LOL
You re litteraly criticising peaple for not voting Harris
Exactly.
Now you have one more chance to tell me what political party I am registered with and I expect evidence. Trolling is not allowed here.
The alternative is to admit you don’t actually know and just assumed I was a member of the Democratic party. Then you were just being uncivil, but I will let that go.
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What specifically did I do? Please lay it out with evidence.
Or is this more trolling?
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I totally understand that sentiment, being myself someone who voted for Harris as the better candidate, but I think the results show it wasn’t abstaining anti-genocide voters who caused her shortfall. Millions of people who voted blue in 2020 didn’t vote or in many cases actually voted red on Tuesday, way more than the few pro-Palestine abstainers likely amount to. And I doubt many ppl who care about Palestine would’ve switched and voted for Trump.
As much as I’d love a simple, singular group to blame for Tuesday’s horrible result, it’s way too early and multifaceted of an issue to do so imo. Depressingly, I think it’s moreso just uninformed voters who thought that since inflation wasn’t as bad from 2016-2019 that Trump would be better for consumer prices, and they didn’t really think about it any harder than that.
You misunderstand. I’m blaming everyone who didn’t vote for whatever reason. It was Israel for a large number of them and this story involves that, so I am pointing the finger at them in this case.
But I don’t care why someone didn’t vote. They chose to accept the possibility that they would be helping a fascist, genocidal dictator get into office by doing nothing to oppose him. Whatever reason they had was a bad one.
Oh gotcha yep totally agree
Fairly certain the economy was the number one issue for voters that switched parties. I have not seen the numbers on how the genocide affected voting outcomes, but the blame rests squarely on Kamala’s shoulders for running a shitty campaign.
Voters don’t owe the politicians anything.
Voters owe themselves something. But instead they decided to crash the economy, end democracy and start more genocides. Because Kamala ran a shitty campaign.
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I love this idea that it’s all one person’s fault. I’m sure you’ll still blame her when Trump’s cops march you into a boxcar.
“It’s not my fault, I didn’t vote for Harris and allowed the U.S. to get taken over by a fascist dictator who is committing genocides. It’s her fault for making me not vote for her because of genocide!” Scream it to the guards, I’m sure they’ll be very sympathetic.
Of course, you could be a cishet Christian man, in which case, enjoy your privilege.
in which case, enjoy your privilege
…for now
I should have added ‘rich.’
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Please read my post before you reply.
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Waiiiiit, are you saying that not voting Kamala didn’t magically stop the genocide in Gaza???
That it only accelerates it, like I and other people have been saying for months???
WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING?!
Well now that the election is lost, the Democrats could make true on their claim they would seriously end this, but had to wait until after the election…
I doubt they will, because every of their action has shown to be equally strong genocide supporters. But we should see the next days, as Israel still doesnt let anywhere close to 350 Trucks into Gaza, leave alone any into the north of Gaza. The ultimatum is running out.
Also as weapons deliverys to Israel have been and are illegal anyways under US law, now would be a great chance to get every Republican and Democrat who voted for them or approved them as part of the administration into jail and in front of a court.
Oh wait, they wont because breaking the law, which unsurprisingly helped the convicted felon win, was worth it, so genocide could be further supportet.
It’s not like the Republican house thwarted all of Biden’s efforts either
That is true. Which is why it doesn’t matter if the bombs given to Israel are red or blue.
However now Democrats lost over genocide. Now AIPAC cannot play both parties anymore by making blind support for Israel the deciding factor. The Democrats lost because of Israel. Now they need to purge the Zionists and rebrand as the non genocide party, if they want to win moving on. This locks AIPAC in as being only in support of the Republicans, which limits their political influence.
If it wasn’t for Harris/Biden loss, there was no hope for Palestinians, or any other people in West Asia in regards to US policy. Now there is a chance that one side of US policy will change.
I don’t think genocide is the only reason Kamala lost.
They lost because they ran a shitty campaign. The only politician with lower polling numbers than Biden are Dick Cheney (a war criminal) and she embraced him, and then bragged about getting support from corporate CEOs.
The campaign was moronic at best.
It is not the only reason. In swing states like Michigan it seems to have been the deciding factor.
https://www.newsweek.com/jill-stein-wins-22-vote-dearborn-gaza-stings-harris-network-1979861
However i doubt that even with a decent campaign of addressing the economic concerns of normal people the Democrats could have hacked it. With the steadfast support for Israel they have shown everyone whose ancestry is somewhere south of the European alps, that they are second grade people, easily dispensable if necessary.
I was so pissed at Israel and Israeli’s for the genocide we’re watching. Then as an American I looked in the mirror and saw my tax dollars providing the bombs for the genocide and realized I’m as responsible as the citizens of Israel. Now I’m just disgusted by our nation, the state of the world and my complicity in that state
They could send our entire fucking arsenal to Ukraine. I’d be for that.
I got banned from a community saying this as calmly as possible XD Idk i feel like theses tankies who were overwhelmingly hostile are either shills or hypocrits who just want to hurt the big bad capitalist, short and long term consequences be damned. (Tankies=/=Leftists just a reminder)
Are you saying Kamala and Biden had the power to stop the genocide in Gaza but chose not to as a bargaining chip with Muslims?
Good job putting words in my mouth, .ml
I said Trump would make the genocide worse. Which he will.
My guess is that both pro-genocide candidates would make the genocide worse.
The difference in degree is a matter of speculative opinion.
And Trump will do genocide at home and in ukraine as well. How wonderful, instead of only one you get 3.
Yep, running two pro-genocide candidates did absolutely nothing to stop the genocide.
Whew! Good thing the moral purity brigade shunned Kamala Harris.
Didn’t you know trump will stop the genocide…by writing a check so large that Israel completely removes Palestinians from the map… can’t have a genocide of Palestinians if there are no more Palestinians.
Check mate libruls
on the bright side we won’t hear anything about it anymore /s
I mean, Trump will definitly ensure that the suffering of Palestenian people ends quickly
Judging by the lack of consequences for the previously observed war crimes, my bet is they’ll prolong the suffering to sate their revenge lust. See if anyone bothers to step in when they erect full blown torture camps.
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Trump voters: “Trump is the most peaceful president ever. We need to bring the defence spending to Ukraine home. America first”.
Trump is elected and inevitably drags the US into yet another war in in the Middle East
Trump voters: Pikachu face
Nah. Just kidding about that last part. It was all just empty rhetoric to justify the grift and looting all the way down as the country burns to the ground in the background.
Trump is very isolationist. I’d be quite surprised if he committed to any conflict directly. Funding Israel to fight for him however…
I find it odd when someone says Trump is this or Trump is that as if he’s consistent on anything. His absurd narcissism is the only consistent thing about him. You can bet your ass he would drag us into a war if it would stroke his ego in some way.
That is what makes him so uniquely dangerous. He has no ideology to speak of. His focus shifts back and forth so often that trying to predict exactly what he’s going to do is impossible. You can say with certainty that he won’t be motivated by any sort of desire for the public good but that’s about as specific as you can get until he starts doing something.
Seriously, it’s amazing that more people don’t understand that Trump does only what Trump thinks will benefit Trump, even if it’s just benefiting the ego.
You criticize my statement about what Trump is for being too absolute and then make your own.
He had 4 years in office and didn’t deploy troops anywhere. The evidence supports my hypothesis so far.
Don’t forget that if we pull funding from Ukraine, the proxy war with Russia will potentially morph into the most peaceful war between Russia and our allies.
But thank God we saved Palestine from the evil black lady right? /s
Good thing your party stuck to their guns and didn’t compromise on committing genocide. Then you wouldn’t be able to be smug about losing to a convicted rapist and felon.
Kamela actually talked about a ceasefire several times, Trump just wanted to nuke Palestine and be done with it. If you paid attention, you’d know that.
Biden has talked about ceasefires for a year now, and proven it’s just talk. Israel has crossed so many red lines it’s impossible to keep count, all with no consequences. Harris said she wouldn’t change a thing and her campaign made sure people knew she didn’t support an arms embargo on Israel. You can gaslight yourself all you want about her intentions, but her actual words -promised- more of the same.
Trump is awful, but telling people the Dems presented any meaningful opposition to ethnic cleansing or that Harris made it clear she’d be better is propagating a convenient lie.
You might find out soon what genocide actually looks like and then you can wipe those fake tears with your useless virtue signalling. Clown
Haha genocide is not some kind of spectrum, it’s the most horrific crime a person can commit. So no, I won’t. SeE ReAl GeNOciDe. I’M ALREADY SEEING IT. All from a party that thinks I’m stupid enough to believe they’re for justice and peace
So outside of Dems learning a lesson which is now yesterdays news. Do you believe Palestinians are in a better place now Trumps is taking over?
I didn’t vote for Trump either. And it’s the Dems that blocked progressive candidates like Bernie from office.
Do you think by telling voters like me to eat shit about Gaza that they’re better off than if they had actually intervened in Israel’s genocide?
No but it’s about end results and being savvy about applying what little influence you have and thinking a step ahead. Palestinians are going to be worse off now, Trump has stated before the election that Israel can do what it wants to get the job done. How do you think Trump would handle any ongoing protests at the university’s, etc. A man just itching to deploy troops to shoot protestors.
You can blame the dems all you like but voting 3rd party or staying at home has assisted Trump back into power and brought in the loons with him that think war in the middle east will bring the rapture.
He’s going to make American, Ukrainian and Palestinian lives far worse. But yeah I guess the dem leadership has learned a lesson now they are going back to their comfortable lives that most likely won’t be impacted by any of this.
At least under the Dems you could have continued the protests, continued the pressure for peace.
If you compromise on genocide then you are not a political agent, you’re a sheep that can be herded with enough pressure.
You keep using that triangulation bullshit because your party has been using it to goad their own base into voting for far right policies OE absolutely pathetic band aids.
We’re not falling for it anymore and we’re going to fight against genocide without your worthless party.
Iran can defend itself. Homeless children can’t.
Thank your god Netanyahu that she played into his hands.
I heard the “but there won’t be any of these wars once Trump is back” argument several times.
I would usually revel in watching the walls come down around someone’s stupid opinions, but in this case, we as a country have to suffer for it.
Really shows how stupid and gullible the American electorate is. War is a classic “Wag the Dog” tactic.
“But Trump will stop
me having to hear aboutall these wars.”Fixed for you. I heard the same from my mom - that it was a REAL SHAME Biden wasn’t trying to force Russia and Ukraine to peace.
What is fucked is that no matter what happens. They will insist that it was all the Democrat’s fault and all the fault of communists and socialists. They will be believed both despite the absurdity of it all and because of the absurdity of it.
in reality it was the 20 million voters that abstained from voting this election.
I like how you flipped the script by blaming the group (the voters) and not the individual responsible (the DNC) for making the horrible decisions resulting in an ongoing genocide.
The voter voted in a guy that attempted an insurrection, so yup I think they hold some responsibility here.
And what useful action does this information enable us to take? Next election, should we nominate better voters?
We have the voters we have. We need Democrats that can reach those voters. Blaming them wins us nothing.
Prepare for the likeliness that there won’t be another election. Whining about it and blaming people solves nothing. Organize your community, and prepare for the worst. It’s time to refocus.
Organize my community to do what? Refocus on what? Revolution?
Until the next election is cancelled, I plan on trying to win it. That means understanding how the Democrats failed.
Good luck with that. Organize for defense. Buy a gun, take some defense classes. Meet other lefties with guns.
“If I win, you’ll never have to vote again,” he says as if voting is a burden.
Being real for a moment, the way that the next election cycle begins immediately once the previous one ends is a bit of a burden. I’m already tired of hearing about ‘Decision 2028’.
Go on then chap, layout what that looks like with the voter we have.
It’s not like progressives haven’t been shouting the answer to this for the past 20 years, but here it is again from an apparently recent convert from within the Democratic establishment camp.
Voters to Elites: Do You See Me Now?
What it doesn’t look like is campaigning with Liz Cheney. It doesn’t look like sending Bill Clinton to Michigan to lecture Muslims on how important it is to fund Israel’s genocide. It doesn’t look like Biden’s garbage gaff. It sure as hell doesn’t look like Harris having no answer to the question of how she would break with the Biden administration. All of these failures might have been irrelevant were it not for 50 years of Democrats looking down their nose at working Americans. A lot of it is policy, but a lot is just a failure of messaging.
That wasn’t my question. It’s obvious what they did went wrong by the result. What should it look like next time?
This comment is terrible for a boatload of reasons but one of the funnier ones is that you’re talking about shifting blame from a group to an individual and then name two groups (last I checked the DNC isn’t one person).
Im sure if you think on it you’ll eventually figure it out.
So you’re admitting that you just vote for whoever you were told to vote for?
You just follow along and do whatever the crowd does?
You’re admitting that you don’t have the mental capacity to identify the threat toward democracy and make the decision to vote for a candidate that isn’t a direct threat to global stability?
Let me explain it in a way that a simple-minded individual could understand.
Votes, elect candidates. Votes are given by voters, not political parties.
These arguments are so straw man that they give me hay fever.
Voting is done. Do something to protect your community. Organize a defense or stfu about it.
The left has been warning you nonstop for the past year that this would happen. Democrats didn’t listen and instead decided that genocide and Cheneys would get Republicans to vote for them. That was stupid as fuck. It didn’t work.
I voted for Harris.
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This was not the election for a protest. This election was to protect democracy from a traitorois Nazi. Anyone who didn’t voters a protest is a sympathizer.
This was not the election for a protest.
It never is. Democrats keep taking advantage of that. It finally failed.
I voted for Harris.
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And now they’ll never get to vote agajn.
Yeah, because DNC didn’t do a spectacularly bad job of fucking up the campaign.
This is awesome. You just absolutely nailed the exact cause. Now all we have to do is what? Eliminate the voters? That sounds like the Republican plan to me.
Or maybe your plan is to convince the voters to do otherwise? Don’t you think the politicians have a tiny little bit of responsibility in that area?
Neoliberalism leads to fascism via a well understood pattern that’s currently repeating all around the globe. If you want better voters, then you need better Democrats.
You aren’t looking for solutions, you’re looking for someone to blame. Quit bitching and start working towards something better, or you’re as useless as the Democratic establishment.
Quit bitching and start working towards something better, or you’re as useless as the Democratic establishment.
That’s the thing. Centrists believe that there is nothing wrong with Democratic establishment, and that they were failed by the stupid voters they hate.
Stop. Just stop. Quit blaming people and get ready for what’s coming. Organize a defense. Your life depends more on what you do now, than who voted for what.
Take your bow single-issue voters and protest voters. We tried to warn you.
You did this.
Yeah but GeNoCIdE JoE, etc.
Nah the DNC did this by abandoning their principles and base in a failed attempt to appease conservatives and some foreign government.
Arguing that people should just support, fund, and arm human slaughter, and likening it to something basic like marijuana legalization or taxes, all so you can win a contest is fucking insane coming from the supposed left, but it really just shows how far to the right the party has gone.
You did this.
So… let’s get this straight. Trump won because he got more votes. I voted against him, you didn’t.
Yet it’s my fault.
That’s some gargantuan big-brain logic there bud.
Who said I didn’t vote against him? You’re just creating a strawman to validate your argument even though you couldn’t be further from the truth. The DNC ran yet another terrible campaign and alienated a bunch of their voters. The people still defending this insanity that has happened almost 3 elections in a row are the people to blame. Are you defending the 2016 and 2024 campaigns? Do you approve of the neck and neck 2020 campaign? How many elections are you willing to lose in a vain attempt at sticking to a losing strategy?
Did you vote for Harris or Stein?
I voted for Harris begrudgingly. Can you please get back on topic now or have you run out of excuses for why she lost and it’s not her or the DNCs fault? As I said, you’ve just created a strawman, and completely derailed the discussion with some “gotcha” that didn’t pan out, not that I really believe you’ll believe me and will likely claim I’m lying so that you can pretend that you were right all along and everyone else is “the problem” and if that’s the case then you can expect the Dems to keep losing elections until you run out of people to blame.
Are you willing to address any of my arguments or are you just going to continue to keep your head buried in the sand?
That person wasn’t even the person you were arguing with.
Fair enough my mistake, but it’s still an irrelevant question.
At some point some people were even saying Harris is worse than the same. For your sanity, I only hope you don’t have family in the Middle East.
Rashida Tlaib’s district is a prime example of this, she kept her seat by a wide margin while Dems lost the state. They decided to ignore their voter base and suffered the consequences.
It’s pretty normal for people not to vote for someone genociding their family. It’s her fault, not the voters. The same way Democrats threw away the votes of the left and Palestinians because they didn’t care if they were being genocided is the same logic the right uses to vote for Trump for the economy despite all the damage he’ll do to women and other minorities. You’re all equally selfish and you don’t have the moral high ground when you’re supporting a genocide and quieting any dissent on it. People tried to say this could lose her the election, but nothing can be the politicians fault, of course, just the voters.
Anyway, turns out it wasn’t the genocide anyway. She lost Michigan because of it probably but it didn’t matter anywhere else, and she lost the election before it was even added. You can add up all the third party votes and it didn’t amount to shit. It was the economy. It always is. People in fucking rural Pennsylvania haven’t been reading hexbear posts or whatever. They just didn’t buy what she was selling.
Or course, if it was the genocide, that just proves what the left was saying all along: she’s got to do better on this issue or she can lose the election, and she’d rather lose than not do a genocide. Turned out she probably would’ve lost either way but still, hopefully the next Democrat candidate will do better, or we can supplant the party with a new one that can run an actual campaign. You can keep doing the bullying thing, but it didn’t work this election, or in 2016, and it won’t work next election either. Stop trying to convince the voters to care about what you want them to care about, and telling them not to care about what you don’t care about, and time to meet them where they are.
No no guys, Harris was the one that supports the Palestinian genocide, not Trump!
Fucking idiot tankies.
Bud, they both support it. The difference is that Republicans don’t pretend to care about stuff like this.
Don’t worry there were no wars under Trump last time and there won’t be this time it’s that simple 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
I genuinely don’t know whether you’re being sarcastic or not.
Yes, despite the smiley-spam.
Trump’s voters are so unhinged that it has become almost impossible to distinguish sarcasm from their real thoughts. Poe’s law n shit
i take comfort in knowing that most of the time it’s going to be sarcasm, since (in my experience) there are very few trump supporters on lemmy. and the few trump supporters that i’ve seen don’t tend to last.
It was sarcasm, hoped the smileys were enough but we live in a crazy world
That should put paid to the myth that Trump is ‘the antidote to all the wars’.
I always thought that the argument ‘no wars were started during his presidency’ was bullshit.
He spent all 4 years totaling around 3 trillion in Afghanistan, to accomplish nothing.
Trump started plenty of wars https://youtu.be/QQYFVEka3fA
I posted the same video. It’s actually kinda incredible what happened.
So no real change from Biden or Harris then?
Yes, apart from the blank check part and Trump telling Netanyahu to “finish the job” on national TV, no real change at all.
Oh, and also the impending genocides of brown and queer people, but I was told before the election that those weren’t important and/or wouldn’t happen.
What in the past 13 months has made you believe that Biden is not giving Israel a blank check to what they want and just finish the job?
The fact that it hasn’t happened?
It is happening. Look at what they’re doing in Northern Gaza. Look at the townhalls they have where they openly talk about settling it once they wipe out that entire area. And you think it’s going to stop there? Look at them banning the UNRWA and look at how they now passed a new law aimed at deporting anyone related to “terrorists”. Look at how they’re now starting to demolish homes in the West Bank too.
It’s fucking happening already. What are you waiting for to say that Biden is supporting it? For Israel to finish the fucking job?
Israel has not been given a blank check from the U.S. It simply hasn’t. I’m not sure why you’re trying to claim otherwise.
I just gave you the fucking reasons. Why don’t you give me why you think they haven’t?
Because congress allocated a specific amount of money for arms sales to Israel. This isn’t a secret.
Biden and Harris was/is still finishing the job. Trump may have said it out loud, but it’s happening right now.
Harris abandoned queers, brown people, and the entire progressive side of the party and needed to pay the consequences.
I hope those right wing votes they courted were worth their efforts
Ah, another new excuse to avoid any responsibility. “It doesn’t matter that I didn’t vote for Harris because it will be just as bad in Gaza either way.”
Anything to help you sleep at night.
I voted for Harris. Most leftists I know also voted for Harris.
Doesn’t mean we can’t be critical. She took every wrong turn after getting handed the keys to the campaign. Including not supporting a ceasefire and cease of arms transfers until the last few days before the election.
Maybe if she would have advocated for that at the start, things would have turned out differently. But then again you can say that about many things her campaign did wrong.
This was her’s and the establishment Dems’ campaign to lose, and they did with flying colors.
Harris abandoned queers, brown people, and the entire progressive side of the party and needed to pay the consequences.
No, the queer community, brown people, disabled people, etc will now pay the consequences. gg
This brown queer person says that Harris was the wrong person for the job, we have our own agency and don’t need liberals to speak on our behalf. We’re capable of speaking for ourselves. Many Brown queer people that I’m familiar with felt the same and voted accordingly
Well, they know who you are, and you better believe that you are on several of their lists. So hopefully you will be able to take solace in the fact that you “took the high road” during the last real election this country will ever have, when you’re huddled up in some white person’s basement, hiding from the government.
So brave of you to try and come white knight for us as our protector. What would we do without white CIS people to guide us?
If you can’t even do the most basic thing to help push the tiniest bit to prevent the worst from happening to you, why would anyone else care?
Is that what you took away from that comment?
Learn some fucking history, because it’s repeating.
None of that changes whether you will be among the primary groups to pay the consequences, which is all I said.
They were courting anyone from the political spectrum who was still a constitutionalist, lefties included, to unite against whatever trump’s mood happens to be that day.
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crazy to think that trump might do exactly what he said he was going to do. how could we, the voters, have predicted this?
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No leftist thinks “Joe wasn’t that bad”. On his watch Israel has killed an estimated almost 200,000 people (using more accurate figures by the Lancet and people on the ground since their health center basically can’t count anymore since they don’t have the infrastructure), started their initiation of the general’s plan starving out Northern Gaza, made everyone but a doctor flee the last hospital in Northern Gaza, start taking over West Bank, killed a record number of journalists in any conflict ever, kill the people they were negotiating with multiple times, and let them start a war with Lebanon and Iran. Oh and also sent backup to Yemen and put troops in Israel to protect them from retribution since apparently Israel is the only country allowed to defend themselves. Trump will do the same thing, but just talk about it more. It’ll be tough for him to reach those heights, even if he sends more troops in, it’ll just be continuing the logical next step of what Biden was doing.
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