• inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world
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    18 天前

    I mean if Europe wants to increase their military funding and move items in house I think that would be a wonderful idea. Because America is not a reliable partner in this at all in the past two decades.

  • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    18 天前

    Good job to all of the fucks who stayed home because of Gaza, thinking that not voting and letting the GOP rise to power would actually help the situation.

    Yeah, because Netanyahu’s extreme right-wing policy was a problem with the US’s left-wing party, right?

      • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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        17 天前

        Urgh, even now before the votes are all in (this will take weeks to finalize) this election was the second biggest turnout since 1932. I hate living in this “post truth” world where everyone just goes off of feelings and emotions. People turned up, for trump.

        • nyctre@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          What feelings and emotions? Trump got 72.6 million votes so far this year. He got 74.2 in 2020. That’s 1.5 million voters right there. Biden got 81.2 million votes. Harris got 68 million votes. That’s 13 million votes difference.

          And most elections get in the 60% ±5 range voter turnout.

          So…yeah… 1/3 of the population doesn’t bother to vote.

          • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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            16 天前

            Yes, 1/3 does not vote. In any election (hell what do local elections hit? 30%) My point is it does not help just pulling the 2020 numbers since those are literally the record numbers of all time. This election was right on the money for turnout, not low, not really super high.

            Blaming voter turnout would require some evidence that voters did not turn out. And in this case Trump won the popular vote, so 2016s electoral college crap is not in play. This election could be cheated (how would I know at this point one way or the other) but my money is on the Democratic party just face planted harder then in 2016.

            • nyctre@lemmy.world
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              16 天前

              The original comment to which you replied said “Millions of people stayed home. I really doubt Gaza was the reason for all of them.”

              We’ve agreed that millions of people did stay at home. So I don’t see the problem. Yes, they often stay at home. That’s the problem. When it’s two of more of the same it’s more understandable. But both sides have been pretty clear about what’s at stake. And they still stayed home. That’s it. And you’ve agreed that 1/3 of the people didn’t vote.

              Not sure how the op was untruthful or misleading or based in any way “off of feelings and emotions”.

              Millions of people chose to allow this to happen. And yeah, Gaza wasn’t the reason.

              • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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                16 天前

                Yeah the reason was that the public is tired, but no more then normal. Blaming this on voter turnout due to a single issue is… silly. I agree with the first statement but not the idea that this election had low turnout, this was a referendum on the status quo. The result was clear (not one that will be good) and this post truth finger pointing just pisses me off, the race was not even close. Do you think if another 15 million people got off the couch they would have not voted for Trump? That is just about as arrogant as you can get.

                • nyctre@lemmy.world
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                  16 天前

                  Meh…dunno… even the stupidest of the people I’ve spoken to have agreed that trump is bad and were outraged by some of the stuff he said/did. And people always claim that when people show up to vote, the Dems win. Not a fact I’ve bothered to check, but it does work for the past few elections.

    • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
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      18 天前

      My argument is what did the democrats have to lose for supporting Gaza/Palestinians? It’s obvious not running a fully left facing candidate and campaign was a mistake.

      We are mad at the wrong people. The reality of the situation is that the democrats can’t win without the far left of the party. So why won’t we extend an olive branch? If we get a next time, what are we going to do differently?! This is the reality. Either we wake up to that or keep losing. Pick one.

      • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        18 天前

        Fuck the people who didnt vote based on gaza. They are even dumber than Maga hats. They help the candidate that is even worse for gaza win . No one should offer these people any branches. Fuck them. Treat them like the idiots they are just like we do with MAGA.

        • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          Okay but if we are guaranteed to lose without them, what’s the harm in giving them what they want? Losing while taking the morally right position is never wrong. We spit in the Arab/Muslim/Palestinians/far left Americans faces and they stayed home on election day. So what’s the harm in at least giving into their demands? The Republicans do that for their base and are winning even when they lose elections. So I’m arguing a change in tactics because we are literally taking the insanity route if we don’t.

          • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            17 天前

            They dont have the morally high ground. They chose to help a fascist get to power. These idiots should never get what they want since they have shown to be completely brain dead. But to get to your point better. Giving them what they want means losing all pro israel people to Trump. Staiying between both positions gets people from both sides. However you cannot give the pro palestine people in america what they want since many want a genocide against israel instead which is just as inacceptable as the status quo.

            • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
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              17 天前

              Uhhhh no… Just no… Most Palestinian Americans don’t want genicide to go the other way… And the people living in Palestinian don’t have the capability to even have running water, electricity, airforce or navy let alone the capability to do a genicide so just no. Pro Isreal / pro genicide people were going to vote for Trump regardless… How about a no genicide party? Is that too much to ask?

              Difference between you and rational people is we are trying to get the best and not just the least worst people. I voted blue but it’s obvious change is needed.

              • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                17 天前

                I feel bad for the Palestinians in Gaza of course. Not for their relatives in america who just helped put a fascist in power who will kill their relatives.

                Anyone who didnt vote or voted for Stein is deserving of everything that will happen to them I hope their family in Palestine will cut them off because they have signed their life away.

                • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
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                  17 天前

                  And what’s your solution to those with legitimate hangups? Sit behind a keyboard and call them idiots? There was no downside to being 100% anti genicide. There is no downside to be for universal health care. There’s no downside to making education 100% free. There’s no downside to fighting for income redistribution.

                  What’s your solution to these real fucking problems? Because the democrats never truly tried any of these or even advocated for them. It’s been this way since the new deal. A slow decay to Jim crow, women’s suffrage, and xenophobia. We need new tactics because what you and the Democrat leadership is saying and doing isn’t fucking working!

                • NatakuNox@lemmy.world
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                  17 天前

                  Don’t get me wrong, Hamas are the worst of the “other” side but that’s why we would fight them as well if the roles were reversed. But I won’t want to achieve that goal by killing 40k innocent people. I’d be just as upset and angry. It’s asking for no genicide regardless of who’s the perpetrator or whos the victims?!

                  And also your argument is the equivalent to saying those being surprised by a stronger power can only fight back by conviction means? Or that the Palestinian people having negative views towards religious fundamentalist who are literally killing and starving their friends and family, forfeit their lives for said negative views? For example if you asked jews people in concentration camps during WWII if they had negative views towards German people, and taking their answer as a determining factor on if they live or die… Nazi Germany also called jews freedom fighters in occupied Poland terrorist. And some of those freedom fighters committed horrific crimes against German civilians… Was Nat Turner a freedom fighter or terrorist? Were native American raids on settlements built on their ancestors land righteous or terrorism?

                  Hamas wasn’t created in a vaccum.

            • ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml
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              17 天前

              They don’t have the morally high ground. They chose to help a fascist get to power.

              Kamala Harris, the Democratic Presidential Nominee, lost. Because of her poor campaign tactics, she allowed a fascist to get into power. Are you equally upset with her for not doing what it takes to stop fascism?

              If not, why was the “right answer” for this election to support Israel when we know that she lost following that tactic, and not supporting Palestine?

              • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                17 天前

                Obviously I am upset with Harris and her campaign. Since she became the candidate I have been critiquing her.

                The right answer is not allowing a fascist to be elected. Supporting Israel is what Trump did too and even worse than Harris. Any pro Palestine voter with a brain would see that Harris is better for them.

                Now they deserve everything Trump will do to them.

                • ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml
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                  17 天前

                  Supporting Israel is what Trump did too and even worse than Harris.

                  So the key to beating fascism in your mind was to platform the same policies, but a little less? What do you actually think Harris should have done differently that would have helped her win the election? Because clearly, doing the same thing but slightly less bad didn’t work this time.

            • bishbosh@lemm.ee
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              17 天前

              However you cannot give the pro palestine people in america what they want since many want a genocide against israel instead

              You are inventing straw men. No one seriously expects this of Harris, and there is a lot of room between ‘reverse genocide’ and what the Biden/Harris admin did.

              • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                17 天前

                If you give in to the “Gimme what I want or I want fascism” crowd they will keep asking for more. Many are already demanding Israel to be dissolved. So fuck these people. I will not shed a tear for them when they cry because Trump flattened all of Gaza.

                • bishbosh@lemm.ee
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                  17 天前

                  Whooeee, scratch a lib eh?

                  Foreign policy is so far from a motivating factor for this country, why can’t you just accept that the democrats are a failure of a party? They went further and further right looking for the ‘Liz Cheney vote’ and lost the popular vote because of it.

              • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                17 天前

                I am not american you idiot. They arent my candidated. Fact is that trump is much worse for Palestine. And non voters will realize this. I wont shed a tear for those americans crying because Trump turned Gaza into a mall. I will feel sad for the palestinians suffering from the actions of their idiot relatives in the US though

          • AnyProgressIsGood@lemmy.world
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            17 天前

            Are we. Is that what the demos say? Don’t think black men and Latinos care about Gaza. The far left is so finicky and small

          • ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee
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            17 天前

            So what’s the harm in at least giving into their demands?

            If people refused to vote because both candidates support Israel, then whose to say that suggesting to withdraw that support wont make an equal or greater number of people to then vote for the candidate who does?

          • iwndwyt@sh.itjust.works
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            17 天前

            You lost. Maybe you should shut up

            You’ve been saying that a lot to different people. Why is it so hard for you to hear a differing opinion?

          • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
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            17 天前

            Why are you such a hateful person? How did you end up at this point in life? It seems that you have completely lost all hope and are just lashing out and desperately trying to make everyone as miserable as you.

            Let me give you a friendly tip, that kind of behavior is only going to make you even more miserable in the long run. At some point, you will have to move beyond hatred and try to rediscover your empathy and humanity, if you ever want to get yourself out of this pit of despair that you continue to dig. I’m rooting for you buddy.

          • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            17 天前

            I didnt participate. I am not american. No democrat sacrificed foreigners lmao. Trump is the one who wants to harm them. I really hope you qre american and will realize how project 2025 will fuck you

              • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                17 天前

                Oh god you are dumb. The weapon deliveries are of course wrong but calling them sacrificing foreigners is just idiotic. You realize Trump is even more supportive of israel right? Trump praised Netanyahu. Israel named a settlement after Trump.

                Instead of using the little bit of brain you have to realize the democrats are the only chance palestinians have to survive you chose to sacrifice the entire Planet to give power to a fascist who wants Israel to exzerminate all palestinians.

      • Rampsquatch@sh.itjust.works
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        17 天前

        I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive. Why can’t we be mad the the DNC for shit strategy and be mad at the folks who stayed home?

        • glitchdx@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          Because we’re only allowed to hold one idea in the brain at a time.

          For a lot of people, “allowed” can be replaced with “able”.

    • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      18 天前

      Tbh, there’s a very dark part of me that makes me just want sit back, watch Gaza and the West Bank get fully reduced to rubble, and all the Palestinians getting put into woodchippers, and just smirk while saying “wow, good thing we dodged a Harris administration. Who knows what that would have meant for Palestine.”

    • Bobmighty@lemmy.world
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      17 天前

      Fucking chat bots convinced enough dipshits to stay home that our country was taken by fascists. Humanity is doomed.

    • NoLifeGaming@lemmy.world
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      17 天前

      So you want me to reward holocaust Harris and genocide joe for not doing ANYTHING to stop it? No, I chose to teach them a lesson. Don’t blame us. Blame the dems for not doing enough and putting a shit candidate.

      • perspectiveshifting@sh.itjust.works
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        17 天前

        What lesson exactly? That if the ideal candidate isn’t run, a subset of liberals will pick the worse of two options?

        All that does is teach the conservatives that if they can convince you that the democrat candidate fails you enough on a single issue, they effectively have your vote. Regardless of the conservative candidate’s stance on that issue.

        You have made the choice to make the problem you care about profoundly worse because there wasn’t a way to make it completely better. Have fun watching that play out as you intended I guess.

        • NoLifeGaming@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          To teach that supporting genocide is a red line and not doing anything about it will not get you elected.

              • kaosof@lemmy.world
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                8 天前

                Even before Trump is in office, his cabinet picks don’t exactly inspire confidence in his reign to be any better than Harris’ likely would’ve been.

                Curious.

      • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        17 天前

        No, I chose to teach them a lesson.

        The only lesson you taught them is that the general public wants more right-wing ideas. What you’ve done is teach trans, blacks, and other minorities a lesson, the lesson that they should be beaten and driven out of their country. You’ve taught that women should be submissive, treated like property, like they are in Saudi Arabia.

        Good job. I hope you reflect on your “lesson” in the next four years, as your right to vote is systematical dismantled.

      • JaggedRobotPubes@lemmy.world
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        17 天前

        Gloating as the Palestinians receive news that help isn’t coming is something that someone who cares more about their own image than a genocide would do.

        • NoLifeGaming@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          And where am I gloating exactly? I’m simply stating that you shouldn’t blame the voters but blame the dems for standing for genocide. Not like if harris was elected it would have been any better for the Palestinians.

      • ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee
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        17 天前

        I’d rather lose my hearing than vision if those are the only two options, despite not actually wanting to lose neither - which is not an option.

        • Nasan@sopuli.xyz
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          17 天前

          Lose both, then you can shamelessly shift blame rather than risk having to bear any kind of responsibility that comes with using the remaining option.

          These people are as detached from reality as the MAGA crowd if they think they’re taking any kind of moral high road by staying home.

      • iwndwyt@sh.itjust.works
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        17 天前

        “Good job to all the fucks who repeated genocide wasn’t that big of a deal lmao.”

        “You lost. You should really shut the fuck up.”

        I don’t think anyone was saying that “genocide wasn’t that big of a deal.” What I repeatedly heard was people rightfully pointing out that the Gaza genocide would be much worse under a Trump presidency. Only bad-faith actors were twisting their words and pretending that that was condoning genocide. You fell for the propaganda… or you’re one of the ones spreading it.

      • tormeh@discuss.tchncs.de
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        18 天前

        Not a lot. The British weapons are reliant on US maintenance. Won’t be credible for long if the US doesn’t support them.

        • EnderMB@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          Isn’t this a bit like saying that because I drive a German car that’s maintained by the dealership, it’s not my car?

          I’m sure it wouldn’t be tricky for the UK to move the Trident weapons program closer to home, or to align with allies in Europe (lol).

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          By the time Russia is knocking at the door of the UK, its already game over.

          That said, I would not want to be Polish right now.

          • seeyouatthepartyrichter@lemmy.world
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            17 天前

            Russia can barely project power across its own border, what chance has it got of projecting all the way to the British isles? We have more aircraft carriers than they do and ours actually work.

            Russia is a spent force. All they have is their rusty old nukes as a threat and I highly doubt they’ll ever actually use them.

      • diffusive@lemmy.world
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        17 天前

        In the game of nukes you don’t really need many.

        You can destroy the world just so many times.

        The rest is just for showing who has it bigger (the arsenal)

      • Chaos@lemmy.world
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        17 天前

        It took two nukes for Japan to wave the white flag. Do we really need 5,000+ nukes for anything? France has 290 and UK has 225. Thats enough to wipe one or multiple countries clean off of the map without any form of surrender.

        • scoobford@lemmy.zip
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          17 天前

          Yes, antimissile systems will shoot down most of your missile volley, so you need to launch enough that they become overwhelmed and the few that make it through accomplish your goal.

          We don’t know exactly how much “most” is, but its enough that the powers that be consider our current level of armament to be necessary.

          • Chaos@lemmy.world
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            17 天前

            This is where I think there is a misunderstanding. You don’t just fire only nukes at a country. You fire a multi pronged attack with regular bombardment aswell.

            • Madison@feddit.org
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              17 天前

              Yes, but to a way lesser degree.

              The bombs become really nasty by creating a big chain reaction (boom) and then radiating the dust the explosion creates (aftermath) which then spreads everywhere.

              Without a controlled explosion there will be significantly less radiating reactions and radioactive dust.

              It’s like deep inhaling the smoke of a package of burning fire starters VS throwing said burning fire starter into a warehouse full of fireworks (and for the sake of this argument you cant leave the warehouse and have no equipment whatsoever)

              Both will probably fuck you up a bit if you’re to close, but one is comparably insignificant.

          • Lumisal@lemmy.world
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            17 天前

            Shooting down a nuclear icbm doesn’t really help as much as you think, if it catches it.

            Not to mention the atmosphere lighting up wouldn’t be much better

              • Lumisal@lemmy.world
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                17 天前

                Doesn’t that depend on how they’re set up? I’d imagine in the 50+ years since they’ve been invented they would have designed it so it could, specifically because modern anti missile defenses exist.

                I mean, I know world governments can be dumb, but I would imagine they’re not that dumb as to bother maintaining a key super weapon just to not upgrade it / design it so that it won’t work if used.

                • Madison420@lemmy.world
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                  17 天前

                  Maybe but no not really the triggering process is extremely fast but kinda fragile because everything needs to be compressed just so.

                  They upgrade them, it’s public knowledge for the budget. Usually it’s faster smaller or different form factor plus renewal programs.

      • Resand@lemmy.world
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        17 天前

        A lot of that is because rest of NATO is under US umbrella. Not like nukes are high tech at this point. Most of Europe could get nukes real fast if they wanted, but everyone has been better served by it being to many Nuclear Powers up to this point

      • Hackworth@lemmy.world
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        17 天前

        But are we bringing nukes to a biological warfare… umm… party? Or hell, AI drones/nanobots?

    • COASTER1921@lemmy.ml
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      17 天前

      Yep, and thankfully the EU has seen the way the US is going and started to react appropriately.

  • Chee_Koala@lemmy.world
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    18 天前

    It seems like a very real possibility. A new, EU followup seems like a natural next step to protect the borders and peace.

  • Adderbox76@lemmy.ca
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    17 天前

    NATO will be fine. They’ll just have to up their game a bit militarily. If America wants to be insular and wrap a flag of isolationism around them, it’ll hurt in the short term, but after four years of being more independent of Americas tit, its more than likely the US that will find itself less relevant globally.

    Even before this, there was already rumblings, not just in China, but elsewhere, about ditching the american dollar standard and returning to the gold standard. That’s just going to gain momentum as soon as Trump starts trying to wave his mushroom around.

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    17 天前

    Hopefully the EU takes over. It has a lot more economic strength then NATO. Also the UK is strong as well, but that can be managed. Turkey does its own things anyway and I would not trust them. Norway and Iceland are not that important. Canada is going to go with the US anyway. The advantage is easier common funding for projects, due to the EU having more direct access to money. There are also a lot of the basics in the works already.

    • RubicTopaz@lemmy.world
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      17 天前

      It is the Fourth Reich

      Oh wait, that's just post-WW2 West Germany

      There were more Nazis in West Germany’s justice department after WWII than during Third Reich

      Fully 77 percent of senior ministry officials in 1957 were former members of Adolf Hitler’s Nazi party, a higher proportion even than during the 1933-45 Third Reich, the study found.

      Nazis in post-WW2 Germany’s government

      From 1949 to 1973, 90 of the 170 leading lawyers and judges in the then-West German Justice Ministry had been members of the Nazi Party.

      Of those 90 officials, 34 had been members of the Sturmabteilung (SA), Nazi Party paramilitaries who aided Hitler’s rise and took part in Kristallnacht, a night of violence that is believed to have left 91 Jewish people dead.

  • RangerJosie@lemmy.world
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    18 天前

    It isn’t credible now. It likely won’t exist at all in 4 years. Unless it cedes even more decision making authority to the US and becomes even more of a puppet.

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      18 天前

      Doesn’t all authority already lie with the USA? If we’re going to be real, I mean. I’m sure France thinks otherwise but let’s be real: NATO was always the “Uncle Sam will protect Europe from Russia”-treaty.

      • Miaou@jlai.lu
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        17 天前

        France knows this, that’s why it wasn’t in NATO for most its history. This only changed when one of our president needed war crime buddies

        • Estiar@sh.itjust.works
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          16 天前

          C’est faux. France is one of the founding members of NATO, however for much of the time it was under a French Command instead of a combined command.

  • bouh@lemmy.world
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    18 天前

    The biggest thing will be all those nato countries who can’t do anything with their US weapons if the US says so.

    • Miaou@jlai.lu
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      17 天前

      If only there was a country in europe that had voiced this concern in the 50s, all of that could have been avoided… Oh wait.

    • ziggurat@lemmy.world
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      18 天前

      That is only if they want to continue to buy new weapons, not if they intend to male weapons in Europe

      • bouh@lemmy.world
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        18 天前

        No. I mean the weapons they have now. F35 for example. If a war happens in Europe, will those planes be useful without US support and authorizations? US can do a lot of harm to Europe with that.

        • ziggurat@lemmy.world
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          17 天前

          Yes let me explain my answer I didn’t elaborate properly.

          I think the only recourse the US has if European countries use these weapons without authorization is that the US will not sell more weapons.

          And if Europe continues to intreases it’s weapon and ammunition production like they have the last two years that might not be a deal breaker for Europe

          • bouh@lemmy.world
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            17 天前

            I’m not sure Europe can make F35 parts for example, which will not fly for long without it, or ammunitions for various US weapons. I hope it’ll be a wake up call to make and use EU instead.

            • TacticsConsort@yiffit.net
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              17 天前

              Just my two cents as an assembly line guy: Parts on aircraft fall into three categories

              -Big custom fuckoff parts. They’re not high tech but they’re huge and they’re a specific shape so you need a huge, precise and very expensive mould/die/whatever to make them. Anyone with the aircraft and a decent engineer could design a machine to make these parts but they would be left with a smoking crater where their wallet was after getting the mould made.

              -Easy parts. Sure, an aircraft fuel pipe is worth 20k, but the civilian parts are made to higher standards anyways, we can find one no problem.

              -Secret technical complex parts. Proprietary cutting edge stuff, which is frankly just bolted onto already complete aircraft. Obviously you can’t replace it if you don’t even know how it works, but the US doesn’t let that stuff out of their direct control very often anyways.

              Don’t fucking talk to me about engines though, those are a whole different beast

              TLDR: We can totally keep our F35s in the air as long as the parts we’re replacing aren’t the skin panels, the engines, or the Secret Third Thing. And as long as we have the money.

        • Estiar@sh.itjust.works
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          16 天前

          That sword cuts both ways. The F-35 has parts from all over the US and EU. This doesn’t extend to every weapon system, but if the US refuses to support F-35s, their own F-35s would lose support too.