Sorry Bernie but after Hillary ousted you and then Biden was shoehorned through the primary in 2020 I voted for Gloria LA riva and now I’ve written in Claudia de la Cruz / Karina Garcia. I think voting left of center or even a vote for that hack Jill Stein actually would show the DNC they are losing votes based on their continued shift to the right and I am even considering leaving the party on my registration over their antidemocratic primaries and their decisions to fund the campaigns of right wing extremists under the misguided notion that they’re easier to beat.
Dont get me wrong, I hope Harris/Walz wins but I do not support them because their positions continue to reinforce the status quo and prop up a system that supports fascism today, right now, at home and abroad.
Otherwise im voting downballot blue except where there is a further left independent which in my area is viable for another statewide position. Thats the most practical support the " at least I’m not the other guy" strategy will get from me, and they didnt even earn it
Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron. Trump may be even more pro Israel…
We know that Harris will let the zionists do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, no matter what it costs the US. Your saying theres much difference between that and whatever Trump plans is dumb. Is Trump going to double kill people and double steal their land?
Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron
I think war crimes surrogates are worse than morons.
You really think there’s a complete carte blanche from either the current administration or will likely be under Harris? Don’t get me wrong. Israel has gone way overboard, but me assure you it could be a lot worse.
Infact, the actions of Trump during his administration included moving the US embassy in an extremely controversial move and even the war criminal Netanyahu meets Trump personally - when he is not even President.
Are you saying that taking action like not voting for Harris, which will help enable a Trump victory, is the correct course of action to reduce Palestinian and Lebanese suffering? Your approach doesn’t make any sense if your goal is to reduce suffering.
America voting for the lesser evil since 1792.
It’s not the time to stop now. But I better see all of you on the streets with signs on November 6th.
For real.
Today, massive supporter for Harris.
Post-election, I shall go back to being a massive critic.
Shitty situation all around. Once heard politics are like public transportation. Won’t give me a door-to-door ride to the destination I’m aiming for, so I’ll take it to get as close as possible.
Gaza is hardly even an issue on the ballot, you’re picking between slow genocide and fast genocide.
Which one should you prefer slowly genocide by starvation, diseases.
Or
Fast genocide by increased bombing and worse weapons.
I don’t think this is a choice anyone would want to choose from.
Slow genocide is better though. We all get that right?
Certainly gives us more time to try to do something about it, yeah.
Certainly gives us more time to try to do something about it, yeah.
The time to do something about it is during an election. Politicians couldnt care less what you think after they have your vote. They dont need your money.
If there was a part of the election to do something about it that time was the Primaries. The primaries that only like 30M people vote in every election. Right now your choices are between death and more death but also closer to home.
Harris could still change her mind at the last minute.
Slow genocide is better
Bernie is such a good guy. The Dems have done him dirty so many times, they are currently continuing to support many harmful policies but he understands what’s at stake and he puts all of that aside to do the best he can.
He doesn’t have to do this. He’s 83 years old and while his cognitive health is outstanding for his age, someone his age doesn’t need to be on this grind for us. He probably won’t stop until he’s forced to due to his health. I love the guy and it’s a shame we weren’t given the chance to see him take the presidency.
Agree 100%, but he’s not a god. He can be wrong, same as everyone else. I think he played this wrong.
Love you Bernie, but get bent.
The problem of the US is that you might lose more voters by dumping Israel than you’d gain by supporting Palestine.
No one actually votes with Gaza or Isreal as a core issue outside of NYC, and the state is eternally blue no matter what.
For better or worse the majority of America doesn’t even acknowledge(or even care) the conflict as an issue outside of the terminally online.
Is there actual polling to that effect?
There are some polls that show roughly 35 to 60 percent of US voters backing the sale of arms to Israel, depending on demographics, but there is a very clear divide between Republican and Democrat support so it’s disingenuous to say a candidate will lose more support than they gain because that depends on which candidate.
A lot of these polls also use loaded questions like “who is responsible for this conflict” with the two choices being Hamas and Israel, which doesn’t really capture any of the nuance of the situation or represent the beliefs of the person answering the question.
I dont have them on hand, but I’ve seen a few polls in swing states where 5 or so percent more undecided voters would be more likely to vote for Harris if she promised an arms embargo, as opposed to less likely.
War in Gaza… Is Bernie still doing genocide denial?
He can’t be using the word “Genocide” specifically, because the international court and UN as well as many very old documents allow 3rd party intervention to stop a genocide, meaning by saying that exact word he would be advocating the invasion of an allied nation which is grounds for expulsion from the senate. I’m sure the 49 Republicans and a couple Dems would love to throw his ass out if a vote came up.
Anybody who wants Bernie to use the word Genocide just wants a Republican Senate Majority, doesn’t care about Gaza, stop faking asshole.
Back then: “This will ensure we never tolerate genocide again!”
Now: mandatory genocide denial
The pure irony of shaming the people working the hardest to stop genocide by calling them complicit in genocide.
Is it complacency if he’s forced to either deny genocide or lose his position to stop it?
Losing his position does the opposite of stop it. That’s the problem.
Right, so why would anyone call him complicit?
Perhaps because of people like you intentionally framing the question of complicity wrong?
She was then immediately threatened with expulsion with a quickly passing Censure Vote 234-188
https://apnews.com/article/congress-house-censure-resolution-tlaib-8085189047a4c40f2d44ada4604aa076
A censure vote has no practical effect but certainly sends a strong message of disapproval.
And for what, btw? Bernie has opposed arms to Israel at every turn, what difference does word choice make?
Did he? My memory is jumbled. It has Bernie full steam ahead defending genocide for at least three months
If you watch the video they cite he clearly does call for a ceasefire, and furthermore says, as is practically his catchphrase since a year ago, that "Israel has a right to defend itself and go after hamas but it does not have the right to go to war against the entire Palestinian people."
I don’t know how you could misconstrue that as defending genocide in any way, shape, or form but if you are against his explicit stance in this case then you want war to continue and more civilians to die, so fuck you I guess.
For a year now he has been the biggest voice in “not sending Netanyahu another penny” unless proof that Palestinian human rights are upheld and aid is brought into the nation, which sadly has not been the policy stance of the majority of congress.
That’s a bad headline. Watch his video, he makes a much more nuanced argument.
The fantasy world the zero-tolerance high-ground morality angels live in is as dangerous as the one MAGA lives in, and ironically has the same victims. They proudly polish their halos nice and shiny while they let the world burn.
Don’t support genocide, it’s as simple as that!
By the way: Voting isn’t actually support. The American system is not set up in a way where votes actually add to the power of the Presidential office. On the other hand, making a deliberate choice not to act does mean supporting whatever happens without your action, which could be genocide. This means YOU HAVE TO VOTE HARRIS IN ORDER TO NOT SUPPORT GENOCIDE. The socialism angels are hypocrites.
"Vote for the candidate who will continue to fund a genocide to show you dont support genocide "
Man yall will do anything to avoid a socialist movement.
I see what you’re trying to do drag but it just doesn’t track.
Voting isn’t actually support
On the other hand, making a deliberate choice not to act does mean supporting whatever happens without your action
Interesting. So, by drag’s logic, a Trump voter isn’t responsible for supporting Trump, but a nonvoter is.
It’s amusing to see the kinds of ridiculous knots y’all tie yourselves into trying to twist around language in an attempt to resolve your cognitive dissonance and punch left.
there are two facts about this election
- there are only two outcomes—0.0% chance for a third party win
- both candidates have a bad stance on the genocide
so neither outcome will help with the genocide. acting like voting third party helps in any way shape or form is disingenuous at best. so what should you do?
my argument is that you should vote for the person you can hope to convince on this issue. phone calls, protests, social media, whatever means you have… which of these candidates is more likely to respond to any kind of public pressure about this?
Harris might be responsive, and let’s be honest, she might not be. but you know for a fact that it’s definitely not the fucking orange turd. Natenyahu wants him to win. how can you ignore that?
My argument is that the only good american is that dude who set himself on fire. You are a scumbag. You are no better than a german in the 30ies smelling the grilled flesh and thinking “this is fine, it’s still better than bolchevism”
lol I’m not an American, go Bolshevik yourself
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you’re going dumber with every comment.
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If you aren’t even American then shut the fuck up. You don’t really grasp how complex the politics actually are.
They’re really not though. You literally have two options and one is so obviously worse
We do understand it pretty well. Sincerely, an ex-Hungarian.
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Fuck off
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which of these candidates is more likely to respond to any kind of public pressure about this?
neither. 0.0% chance for either candidate.
i only voted for kamala because she’s a woman and even though she’s an awful candidate at least we can get it out of our collective system, show little girls they can be president, and the neoliberal status quo is probably still better than Trump
i’m not entirely sure on that because I think Kamala is more likely to lead us into a war with Russia… but Trump is more volatile in general I think
Amazing that you at least did the overwhelming obvious right thing even though your reasons are awful
i think breaking the barrier of sex in terms of male/female president is a powerful thing. there’s been so many women throughout history that could have been judith pulgars, politically speaking, and ended up getting pushed into more subservient positions
that’s the main reason. i dont think that’s an awful reason
as for the russian war thing, i rather like living in a pre-nuclear-war society.
i think breaking the barrier of sex in terms of male/female president is a powerful thing.
I agree with that, and its long overdue, but if she fumbles badly she may set everything backward.
It just implies that looking at the candidates the biggest and most important difference you see is that one is a woman.
Like, it’s great that you did vote for that woman as she also happens to be in favour of women having rights, lgbtq+ people having rights, doesn’t want mass deportions, still wants there to be elections in the future and a painfully long list of stark differences like that. It’s just impressive that none of that mattered to you, or that you are unaware of it
i’m more cynical about her. it’s not that i don’t think gay rights and women rights aren’t important. they are. but to me, the primary issues i care about, in order of importance
a) probability of war
b) attitude towards immigrants
c) economic position
d) foreign policy in general
so for example I think Kamala is probably more likely to get us into war than Trump is. That gives points to Trump.
on the immigration front, I don’t have any illusions about where the national conversation is going. I was brought here to this country illegally as a small child. I grew up here illegal and it wasn’t until my early 20s that I managed to naturalize
so i’ve been embedded in immigrant communities, with a lot of illegals sprinkled in, and have been paying attention to immigration news for virtually all of life
i can only think of two politicians who have done something meaningful for illegals. Reagan and Obama. Reagan of course gave amnesty to millions of illegals. Obama enacted the DACA policy, which wasn’t nearly as broad as amnesty, but it was definitely a good thing that helped hundreds of thousands of people. but “immigration reform” has been promised my whole life by DNC and never delivered. best was the half-assed DACA
But let’s look at rhetoric from Biden. During campaign in 2020 he advocated for a “compassionate approach” and was “pushing for immigration reform”. he promised to halt the construction of “the Wall tm”
What about the last couple years? He expanded construction of the wall which he timed with a photoshoot with Customs and Border Patrol at the southern border. He also went on TV and started using the word illegal - which is a term Democrats historically haven’t used. I don’t think it’s offensive or anything- but it’s telling to show how the overton window has sharply been shoved to the right
Now look at Biden’s successor - Kamala - the woman I voted for begrudgingly. go to her website and look at the policies and you will see zilch about compassionate approach or immigration reform. today it’s “security and strong border”
right now over 65% of all Americans (not just GOP) support deporting all illegal immigrants. Something absurd to say even a decade ago. Majority of Americans support a policy which would effectively have the military going around house to house in order to put over 10 million people in camps, which they would stay at for years while the government tries to figure out the complex and expensive logistical challenge of moving millions of people out of the country (Germans had this same problem back in first half of the 1900s. they came up with a controversial solution to that question, of course)
so i’m not saying kamala is equal or worse than trump on this. trump is partly at fault for the rise in this change. but i think long term it won’t make a difference who wins in this field. either way immigrants are screwed, so it doesn’t really matter to me in this election
economic position, i think not gonna matter much. the whole “tax breaks for first time homeowners” from Kamala is yet another bailout to the banks at the expense of regular people. Trump put in sanctions on China, raising prices for Americans… Biden kept them in place and put some more. I don’t think this is much different. the reductionist “tax the rich” is a nice slogan but without meaning. as long as the government has a money tap funneling public money to leeches, no amount of taxes will ever filter down to help the working class
foreign policy in general. again, i don’t see much of a difference. china from above is a good example. iran is another. Obama actually came up with a revolutionary deal- bringing the Iranians back into the fold. Trump torpedoed that deal in spectacular fashion and then moved the American embassy to Jerusalem. Biden maintained the “get fucked” attitude towards Iran and went to Tel Aviv in Oct of last year to bend the knee to Netanyahu.
so to summarize
for the issues i mentioned, which are the ones that matter to me, i think long term the choice of candidate isn’t going to influence anything significantly either way. the zietgiest is headed in a certain direction and i don’t think either candidate has the capacity or willingness to meaningfully change the course of things
so then we get to why did i vote for kamala. because I think it’ll be inspiring to girls and women across the country. it’ll implicitly let them know they are equal and are able to accomplish anything, even the highest office in the country
i think that alone is worth voting for her. and of course Trump is a bit of a wild card and I prefer stability.
neither. 0.0% chance for either candidate.
This level of cynicism is unwarranted. Sure it might be low, but for Harris it’s at least 0.1%.
with the current stranglehold the pro-Israeli lobby has on American politics (includes both GOP and DNC) even 0.1% is a stretch
AIPAC even brags about it: https://aipacorg.app.box.com/s/t8vvqt7evxvgkzn5jktpwejate6oxo0y
98% of AIPAC endorsed candidates won their election in 2022. if you are a politician and you say something mildly critical of Israel they will go to war with you and do everything so that your opponent wins
Israel has figured out how to hack American democracy. There is no going back at this point. We are a pro-Israel country for the foreseeable future, regardless of which candidate wins this election or the next one or the next one
What they think their vote contributes to:
Fuck off drag. The US dems are guilty of extermination and everybody who vote in this election are complicit. You can call them to throw foreigners under the bus for their own gain and security, since they are bullying people to vote for the genocide party just because the other side said they were gonna be worst.
When somebody commit a crime, you punish this person, you dont give them power because some other dude talked shit.
Don’t support genocide, it’s as simple as that!
Just say whatever the fuck you want while you do whatever the fuck you want, it’s as simple as that!
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Your vote only actually matters if you’re in a wing state. If you aren’t you should be voting PSL or greens.
vote blue to start turning the state into a swing state. Definitely don’t vote green as they are on the record of trying to make trump win
How will voting for the Dems make New York into a swing state?
Not doing it might
Maybe the dems should think about that going forward then and fix their platform.
First of all, at this point people in the US should vote against Trump for their safety, and that means in the current political system they have to vote for Harris. That’s the reality they have to face. The Trump party has made fascist announcements that are real and people should expect them to be made into real actions.
The problem is that the Democrats frankly have abysmal messaging and are drifting to the right further and further while using Trump as a threat to their voters. They adopt anti-immigrant policies and are distancing themselves from pro-LGBT stances, saying it’s the states decision. Both these issues as well as demands for a ceasefire poll exceptionally well, but the Harris campaign seemingly don’t want the edge. With all this they are signaling that right wing worries about immigrants and trans people are valid, although that’s absolutely not the case, and leave people to decide for example “do I want anti-immigrant light or extra harsh anti-immigrant?” when everybody says immigrants are an issue. This is unacceptably stupid and risking the vote. And that’s ignoring the elephant in the room that progressive policy like health care is exceptionally popular and using that as counter messaging would win her voters.
We’ve seen how popular the Democrats got after Harris took over and Walz got nominated. It signaled change. Now all the Democrats say that it’s gonna be the same old as usual treading on and the same bad argument vote us or you’ll get a dictatorship. I’m not denying Biden dropping out had nothing to do with the surge of popularity, but back then we also had comments like here, basically declaring any dissent from supporting a decrepit old man as the candidate as heresy. Now there are again, only Yes men here saying if you criticize Harris you’re a bot or a Trump ass eater. What is wrong with you?
Finally, I have the creeping suspicion that Democratic establishment people don’t fear a fascist Trump administration themselves personally as much as the population has to. Trump announces he will go after his enemies, Latinos and trans people (probably all queer people actually). He has anti women’s health and rights messaging all over his campaign. But that doesn’t seem to be a risk for people higher up in the party. I suspect that when you’re rich you don’t have to worry about abortion bans or HRT access. And if Trump threatens them with violence they always have money they can throw at him. It’s much more comfortable to run a risky neo liberal and right wing platform against a fascist if you can jump ship later on.
I was a Bernie-or-Bust-er in 2016 because I was confident Hilary was going to win with or without my vote. I deeply regret taking that stance and feel like I let down every woman who’s lost rights to their bodily autonomy, every family who was separated at the border, everybody whose life was lost or ruined due to the Trump administration’s incompetent response to the COVID-19 outbreak, and everybody else who has been harmed by the Trump administration.
Don’t be like me. It sucks having to vote for the lesser of two evils but that’s how our system works and not voting or voting third-party isn’t going to change that but it does run the risk of things getting a lot worse.
Can I ask what state you were voting from in 2016?
TX at the time. Generally regarded as solidly red. However, looking at the numbers in '16 and '20, I wouldn’t be surprised if everybody in the state who had either voted third-party or not at all because of the belief that their vote wouldn’t make a difference would have indeed been enough to potentially flip the state.
I’m hoping this will be the year we see Texas flip blue. That would be beautiful.
Wish the push was to tell the Democratic party not to engage with genocide not to tell us we have to suck it up to vote for genocide anyway.
He’s said this too… but of course you don’t actually care about that fact.
Ok… Just saying it’s sad. Do you not think it’s sad?
Edit: actually no what the fuck is this reply? What fact don’t I care about? That Bernie agrees that this is fucked. What did I say that you take issue with?
Jesus Christ. I’m so tired of you genocide minimizers
The reply is you will continue to say not to vote for even the best options for what you claim you want. It’s stupid.
OK, in case you can’t understand, I’ll expand further. Your comment was:
Wish the push was to tell the Democratic party not to engage with genocide not to tell us we have to suck it up to vote for genocide anyway.
He has pushed to tell the Democratic party to not engage with genocide. He should be someone you support. Instead, you spend every opportunity undermining anyone who could give your movement legitimacy. However, because he is practical and says we should also support Harris, because it’s the best move that we can make, he’s wrong and you’ll say things like implying he isn’t against the genocide. It’s pretty stupid.
Take a deep breath
I don’t know what you think my positions are but you’re wrong. I am a socialist. I’m not in a swing state so I did vote third party but I would never dream of telling someone in a swing state of doing the same I would tell them they have to vote for Kamala.
I’m not talking shit about Bernie Sanders, I know he has made attempts to be on the right side of this issue but because he does not have support from his party he’s been unable to. I’m simply lamenting the fact that our political system is so un-nuanced and so shitty that we have to pick between two genocide enablers for the highest office in the land. And that even the better party is pro-genocide. That’s all.
I wish we lived in a political system that gave us enough power as the people to just have choices we actually want. Not this lesser of two evils bullshit that we constantly do.
You good?
I’m good. Your first comment should have just been worded better I guess. You said you wish the (Bernie’s) push was against genocide, which implies it wasn’t. He has though. It’s a discredit to him to imply he hasn’t, and many people on here will say he’s bad just because he also supports Harris, which means he isn’t against the genocide.
This opinion you’ve stated now seems fine, but the original comment seemed to say something else.
Put it a different way: if both candidates are willing to turn a blind eye to genocide, who do you think you’d have a better chance lobbying to change their stance? One support a cease fire and a two state solution. The other doesn’t think a two start solution could work, and that Israel needs to do whatever they need to do to get the war over with.
I’m clear both are for the extermination of Palestinians and will support Israel in all their wars. I think we’re kidding ourselves acting like the difference between the two on those issues is substantial at all. They both are lobbied to so much by Israel’s pac
Based on this i’d think its harder to lobby the Dems but I really think neither party is movable on their positions in respect to Israel.
Totally agree that Kamala will be better on everything else though. Just find it fucked that we’re told to suck it up on the pro genocide stances.
Protest voting doesn’t work when the candidate you are protesting is the least worst option. Democrats that will not vote out of principle have been conned as badly as MAGA republicans. End of story.
I think you might be on to something. Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting? I mean, it does deliver two right-of-centre parties to power, over and over again.
Where the wheels are coming off is that one of them - and some people say both - are moving further rightwards, and this is destabilising society in America.
Pretend you’re a politician. You have two groups of people that want opposite things. One of them is reliable, donates and volunteers to help your campaign. The other is feckless and seems to always find an excuse to oppose you. Which would you try to please?
What exact issue do you disagree with from the feckless ones? What made it so hard?
You’re not doing a very good job of pretending to be a politician if that’s your answer.
so you can’t point a single instance. got it. sounds like your hypothetical politician was an asshole not worthy of the job.
Some people say… Dems are generally shit but they have definitely moved left over the last decade. A lot of new people have run and while it isn’t a sure thing by any stretch, people have been able to and have the chance to continue to move the party and also just straight up infiltrate it to push it left. Whereas the repubs have been in full sprint to the right.
Maybe the system is set up to limit the power of protest voting?
It absolutely is set up that way. This may or may not have been the intent of our election system, but it is the outcome.
Are you American?
I hope he is not. At least he wont rot in hell.
