The atmosphere is so heated, and the statements are getting more and more extreme. Let’s just assume Harris wins the election. After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
You’re assuming those relationships survived the 2020 election. For many, myself included, they didn’t.
I was willing to overlook 2016, but after 4 years of horror culminating in a (failed) coup, and those people still supporting him, I just cut them out of my life.
Supporting Trump is no different than supporting Hitler. I find it very easy to cut nazis out of my life.
One side wants me dead, there are no worthy discussions to be had.
That’s understandable. It’s also, in microcosm, the reason your country is so divided. If you want to continue living in a democracy, you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other.
I don’t disagree at all. However, that is a whole lot easier said than done when one side is so far gone in an alternate reality of lies and hate.
We’re going to need a mass cult de-programming or something. I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
The usual way to fix these things is civil war. Don’t worry, you won’t have to start it, the racists and fascists will do it for you. And then they’ll get annihilated, like always.
This is because they may be loud, aggressive, greedy, hateful and boastful which all help them start and ramp up wars. But they are also stupid, cowardly, irrational, week minded and a minority, which make them loose these wars.
What you think about them, they think about you. They’re not evil, they’re not idiots. If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
It looks pretty simple from where I’m standing. You talk to them. You listen to them. You find things you agree on, beginning with the smaller things. They’re not automatons, they’re people.
Update. This avalanche of supposedly tolerant progressives who are openly against the idea of talking to their fellow citizens proves to me that America deserves everything it gets. Good luck.
Naw, maybe you’re not queer and not being called a pedo, or followed or having your job threatened by a former president. It’s not my job to raise an adult right and free of hate, I have one child. I don’t need to burn myself out giving Republicans 3rd and 4th chances to be decent people.
“What you think about them, they think about you”
No, this is precisely the issue. Any leftist worth their salt can’t fucking stand conservatives and YET we will still protect their basic human rights and accept them into a collective society.
Conservatives on the other hand are perpetrating violence every single day against leftists and minorities they LOUDLY do not accept into a collective society. They deny abortions for women who are on the verge of death, they advocate for draconian health care policy that massively raises the suicide rates of trans kids because they hate trans kids and they believe deep down in their racism with an unshakable fervor that makes their meager spiritual practice of christianity look sad and pathetic in comparison.
It is far past the point of having a debate with rightwing conservatives, what is left is to intimidate them into shutting up, drowning out their voices and laughing at their tiny hateful visions of the universe.
The social fabric of the US is being ripped apart by conservative white men because they can’t handle how scary using pronouns is and frankly the solution is to activate everybody else, not humor these people yet again with another discussion they are going to approach in a fundamentally disengenous way.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree.
Your first sentence, yes I agree. The next two, not so much. In my town in 2020 we had groups of these chuds roaming around downtown, armed, hunting for “antifa,” meaning anyone wearing black or looking slightly punk. Some of them really do want to shoot us with impunity.
But yeah, it’s also my parents, who probably wouldn’t turn me into the gestapo, but the cognitive dissonance where they simultaneously believe I’m their family but I’m also “the enemy within” doesn’t seem sustainable. At some point, it’s got to be one or the other. Getting them to agree on small things hasn’t changed their overall loyalty to the party, their disdain for Dems, or our relationship.
What you think about them, they think about you.
True, but irrelevant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree - they have to be at least one of those things to be MAGA, usually both.
If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
Hah! They DO live next door and I most certainly don’t find them pleasant.
Let’s assume that they are not bad people. In order to bring them to sanity, it would take an ungodly amount of pressure, and they would have to have no connections back to the cult. If there is even a single connection all the effort would be for naught.
They are not where they are, due to logic or empathy, so you can’t use logic or empathy to argue them out of it. I lost my entire extended family over this.
You are dead wrong. I was raised in a deeply conservative lifestyle with conservative friends, family, and neighbors. I retired from a career steeped in conservatives, working shoulder to shoulder with them daily. The vast majority of the people I’ve known through the years have been conservative. I’ve been talking and listening this whole fucking time, trying to move them toward reason, naively thinking they would someday grow emotionally, become empathetic or introspective. A conservative is simply not able to experience these things. Empathy and introspection are not conservative traits.
Conservatives will not budge an inch. The more one attempts to reason with them, the more angry they become. If you aren’t careful, you will end up on their enemies list just for being a suspected non-conservative.
I appreciate your friendly approach, as it seems to come from a place of kindness and empathy, but that capacity for empathy does not exist in a conservative.
Never in history has fascism been cured by just talking and listening. Historically, the cure for fascism is only delivered by force.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
No, they’re both. They know they’re spreading hate, and they find it funny.
Yankee here, and fully agree with what you said. Unfortunately, empathy seems to be an increasingly lost art in this country and it only seems to get worse as each side continues to dehumanized the other.
I know what you mean, when I put to nazis and bigots, through various civil discourses, the most agreeable and cordial justifications for their systematic capture and extermination or deportation, to my great surprise, they never acquiesce to any form of intellectual exchange, regarding the legitimate concerns I raise.
Its the most bizzare thing because, just previously, they’d been more than happy to declare thus and so the most polite and reasonable argumentations supporting the very same thing for other people. More so, they many were lamenting how unfair it was for them to be denied the opportunity to pontificate on such matters, just a short time previously.
I’m sure you can only imagine my surprise when they did this, after their claims of wanting nothing more than “civil discourse.”
No. It’s called the Paradox of Tolerance. “Discussing” rationally with the intolerant only serves to justify their position in their own eyes and thereby embolden them.
In other words, putting up with them simply gives them more ink
Turning the other cheek only works if the person doing the slapping has a sense of shame. Trump and his ilk have long since proven they have none.
I don’t remember who said it first, but I’ve linked it before: there’s no paradox if tolerance is a social contact rather than an ethic. If someone breaks the terms of the contact, then the other party is not bound by it any more.
Yeah. Although what if half of the country is intolerant? What then? Divide the country into two?
I’m not sure it’s half, maybe half of the voting population but that’s usually only around 40-60% of the total population.
In all seriousness, how does one listen to and communicate with people who have slid so far down a misinformation hole to a place where science is fake, every expert who disagrees is part of a global conspiracy, and the only people they listen to literally can’t stop lying?>
I still talk to and value my mother, and believe she is a good person, but she’s fallen prey to insidious propaganda and believes that Trump is just a flawed tool for God and the Republican platform is the only way to save the world from the forces of evil.
As an aside, my favorite conspiracy theory was how all the governments of the world were collaborating on the COVID lockdowns so they could control the people and take power. The governments capable of national lockdowns could take power. 🤦🏼♂️
If you want democracy to survive you should be intolerant of intolerance.
I’m not listening to Nazis so fuck off.
Yes, it’s our fault that fear-addicted racists have refused to listen to reason for decades and particularly during the last eight years when an obviously unfit clown was committing scandal after scandal. We should be inviting cultists who refuse to listen to us back into our lives and calmly discuss why it is good for the country to be a Christofascist dictatorship.
It’s hard to listen to the illiterate.
I get where you’re coming from. Unfortunately, it’s not really that simple. Sometimes a relationship is so toxic that there’s no way to restore the basic trust that’s needed in order to function as a unit. This is no different. Pre-Trump, we might have been able to talk and salvage things; at this point, they’re just as broken as a relationship full of cheating and domestic abuse. My fear is that the only way forward is breakup (ie civil war) or some other equally deep trauma.
My dad is on his death bed, I haven’t spoken to him in years, because he’s full on MAGA. It breaks my heart that I lost my dad to that cult and that I’ll lose him forever soon, but I will never forgive him for supporting the scum that is proud he stole womens rights.
So to answer your question, being sad and waiting for tomorrow.
To those giving you shit about cutting horrible people out of your life and saying you need to go visit…
Bullshit. Fuck that noise. I have family that I’ve cut out as well (although, luckily, not my parents). I’m 100% open to them rejoining my life, but their hatred for others is stronger than their love for me, and I won’t allow them back until that changes. Spoiler alert: it probably never will, because there’s no love like Christian “love”.
“Agree to disagree” is reserved for things like “I don’t like coffee.” Not racism, homophobia, and sexism. Not human rights. Not basic common decency. If I unfriend you during this, it IS personal. We do not have a difference of opinion. We have a difference in morality.
- @cdvaughn16, Twitter, 2020-06-05
Damn. I’m sorry :(
This is the correct energy. You already lost him. What’s dying now is some rabies-zombie.
Sorry you had to lose him in such a horrible way. I know exactly what that’s like to go through.
Blood is thicker than your dad’s skull. Be bigger than him and hug him before he leaves you forever if it’s possible for you. Fuck the MAGA cultist mentality. Overcome his stubbornness and pride.
People are not owed love by circumstances of biological relation. They made the bed they lie in, actions have consequences, bridges can burn.
Given enough time person might look at their dad less like the asshole and more like the victim of a scam perpetrated by the real asshole, but life is tricky like that
There’s a lot that’s great about this. Need one change though–“scam” isn’t quite the word for this. If you scam somebody you can just fool them once, get their money, and get out.
“Darn, I have been fooled once, in the past, and won’t get that money back, I’ll look out for that scam now”. That’s a scam.
Getting up every day and choosing in each instance to be not just shitty, but a nazi, isn’t “getting scammed”. That’s something he participated in and is on the hook for. He had to go really far out of his way to do it.
It’s a beautiful and clarifying sentiment that, at most, only partly applies in this situation.
Getting up every day and choosing in each instance to be not just shitty, but a nazi
These people are getting up every morning and all they see are comments downplaying and explaining why it shouldn’t be taken literally. They turn on their favorite ‘news’ station which ignores the obvious and latches onto sensationalized nothingburgers and conjecture. Reality to them is an entirely different thing. They can’t see the forest for the trees. Everyone around them is telling them not to look. They step in a little too far and get caught in the undertow.
But this far right bullshit is happening all over the world, started happening as soon as everyone wound up with a phone in their pocket, and it often gets traced back to Russian interference and influence.
And the dumber it sounds, the more credence it gets, because it drives the other half up the fucking wall. Beetles are what’s causing the Canada wildfires, hurricane machines, Haitians eating cats and dogs, normal ass people are not letting these things become things organically
Agreed. I said “if it’s possible.” Pride is a real motherfucker for some, but I think it can be overcome. Hopefully they can do so with their dad.
The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.
My dad is also MAGA but thankfully not very outspoken about it or I couldn’t stand to be around him. I’m still quite pissed at Trump and his cult following for putting the thought into my head that his death could be a net benefit to society.
As someone who just lost a parent suddenly.
You will almost certainly regret that.
Nope, when my mom dies it will bring a weight off my shoulders, not having to make sure she doesn’t know where I live. The last time she lived by us she wrote manifestos about militant lesbians forcing straight women to become like them and stapled it around work and home.
My father’s death was one of the best things that happened to me.
Sure, because everyone’s experience with their parents is just like yours
No they won’t. I can’t wait for my parents to both fucking die so I can reconnect with my sisters without them being emotionally abused.
Fuck racists, I couldn’t care less how they die. They oppose my family, I spent 2 decades trying to accept my family, they didn’t.
Shit, I’ve been upset for losing a friend, your right, losing a parent is terrible, sorry to hear.
Removed by mod
Short answer: I bite back now.
Long answer: My parents are hard-R Republicans. Every time they start getting all “demoncrats r bad” i just ask them, “Why do you want me dead so fucking bad? I know from being raised by you that you fucking hated me growing up, but to vote for “gays should be executed”? This is exactly why you didn’t have grandkids, the thought of putting more of your hate in the world is abhorrent to me…”
I’ve only had to pull that one out twice, so far, but it hits them hard when they still (I’m a few months away from 40) insist I “give them grandkids”.
it hits them hard when they still (I’m a few months away from 40) insist I “give them grandkids”.
They should probably vote for people where you having kids is an option then (not assuming you want them BTW, just pointing out the irrational hatred of lgbtq+ has made all kinds of family options harder).
You can’t go back. This isn’t just a political difference of opinion, this is a full blown violent cult. We need greater funding for mental health and deprogramming services.
This is pretty much what I thought. But I hoped there was maybe something more 🥲
It sucks to make an observation, hate it, be right, do more looking to disprove it because it sucks so much, and keep unavoidably being sucker punched by the same conclusion everywhere you go.
We… don’t? Have you not been watching American news for the last… 9 years? I don’t speak with my family because me being trans is not fully accepted by them. I don’t really want to associate with anyone who is okay with increasing trans suicides via politics. I moved from North Carolina to Oregon to be in a queer friendly state, and I don’t regret it one bit. And I have an appointment to get my passport tomorrow… just in case. I don’t know if this country can be fixed. People talk about getting along with our neighbors or meeting in the middle, but I don’t know how to get along with people who wish I didn’t exist.
And I have an appointment to get my passport tomorrow… just in case.
I wish I could say come to Germany, but things are looking grim over here too :(
I do not know of any not-grim countries right now
“Getting along with your neighbors” has moved the right more right… and the left… more right. That center isn’t what it used to be.
That and the “we don’t talk about politics” bs… In my head I always think “Why? Because you’re embarrassed of your political beliefs?”
I’ve ended my relationship with my father, and the one with my mom/step dad is on shaky ground, though they’ve just swapped their vote for Kamala (it took way too much convincing for that to happen though).
Here’s the issue I have with these people, post the 2024 (and truthfully, even the 2020) election.
Reasons to vote for trump at this point in the game:
- They’ve seen what he’s said and the kinds of actions he’s made and his hate/violent rhetoric/attempted coup/felonies/treason with classified documents/overt Fascism/dictator comments/etc/etc/etc, just the fucking worst a US president, hell even a citizen, can do to abuse their power, position, and hurt their fellow Americans in the process; And they’re for it. They support their brand of fascism. Because for some reason they agree with his message and think they’re going to come out aces after the dust settles from WW3
- They’re ignorant to literally every piece of media, news outlets, cable TV, print, tiktok, fucking Joe fucking Rogan shit, and they genuinely don’t understand why voting for trump is bad.
In both of those cases, they are absolutely not to be trusted. I don’t think there’s too many people left in the second use case, but even so, every single one of his supporters is not to be trusted or respected ever again. They’ve shown their true side, and it’s the worst humanity has to offer.
I didn’t realize we had that many pieces of shit living here in America, but we do. So I refuse to associate with them ever again. I will not do business or have any interaction with them again, if I can help it.
They’ve isolated themselves. I will not fall victim to the paradox of intolerance. I refuse to tolerate Nazi’s living in my country. And at this point, everyone who’s voting for trump is a Nazi.
I don’t give a shit if semantically that’s not a PC statement. This is the truth. Downvoting will not change that fact. If you support trump today, you are a fascist that is most closely aligned with the Nazi ideals. I don’t want to hear the excuses, or what someone is “really” supporting trump for. It’s all noise and bullshit to hide the fact that they are deeply disgusting people all the way through who I do not want in my life, or in power making decisions that could affect me or the people I care about.
I don’t know your situation, but turning from family will only harden their resolve and make them more defensive. I went through this with my mom. She voted for Trump in 2020, after years of me telling her how bad he was. I was angry and didn’t talk to her for 2 months. During this time I heard a podcast with David McRaney, about how to talk to QAnon people. It helped me to understand how they got there, and how to help them out of it. It is a process. They operate on an emotional level, and you have to relate to them on emotional level. After that, you question how they arrived at their decisions. Like:
If I asked what your favorite movie is, could you explain why it’s your favorite movie?
Emotionally connecting with them and then thoughtfully questioning their beliefs, in a non-condescending way can be beneficial. It may take days or months, but once the seed of doubt is planted, it can start a dialogue. Remember, these are people we love ❤️, we owe it to ourselves to be compassionate in conversations.
I sincerely appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply. It sounds like you’re a damn good person, and your mom was worth it as well.
I left out, but probably should have mentioned that even before the trump/MAGA stuff came into their lives, we had a deep divide due to a lot of trauma and issues they inflicted on me during my childhood. Both of my parents are different types of deep narcissists, with deeprooted religious beliefs that untether them from reality (e.g. they admitted they would kill me, my siblings, their grandchildren, etc. if they thought god told them to; that sort of thing). Neither of them gave me anything in life, didn’t pay for anything really (my dad’s child support was spent to keep my mom’s side able to “not work”, without much spent on me or my siblings), my mom chased a sibling around the dinner table with a steak knife trying to stab him (it wasn’t until much later that she’d get medication to help with these episodes), and just generally all the awful normal stuff that happens between divorced parents that deeply, deeply, hate each other and are willing to burn the world down if it meant the other person wouldn’t have a pot to piss in. This unfortunately included putting all of us through tons of abuse, court custody cases, CPS visits, police visits (I’ve had to have my fingerprints done I was 6 because of some serious shit that happened and they needed to isolate the prints that weren’t me or another family members to find the culprit), etc. (like, seriously etc.+1000. I could go on for literal days with all the shit that they put me and my siblings through over the years. Haven’t even scratched the surface).
The trump thing was a very large straw that broke the camel’s back. They were already on thin ice as shitty human beings that refuse to apologize for the damage they did to me and my siblings over the years, and continue to do (I have one of my brother’s living with me right now, because of them).
My relationship with my dad ended after he exploded and physically assaulted me in front of his home. I tried to reconcile and work with him through one of our siblings as a mediator and he flew off the handle again accusing me of disrespecting his authority (which was not just taking everything he tells me as “fact” and “morally correct” since I’m considered an “amoral atheist”…), at which point I cut him out of my life. I just don’t need that shit added to everything else on my plate in life. He was never there for me, my friends were my family.
Anyhow, again, not to detract from your kind and optimistic reply. Anyone else in a different situation, I would encourage to take your advice.
For me though? Hopefully the context I’ve added starts to paint the picture of why that’s a bridge too far. Even if we somehow got through/past all the trump nonsense, we still have all the above, and about 100x that which I just didn’t want to burden a reader with going through all my trauma ;)
It certainly sounds like you made the right choice for you if there is a violent history. Hope for the best for you and your brother.
Always hurts when they believe the TV more than you
Oh, that’s easy; we don’t! Every four years, the fabric of our society frays and tears a little more, while our politicians either exploit our divisions or attempt to repair them without making any changes to the material conditions or systemic problems that create these fractures, because fixing these underlying issues would upset the handful of billionaires that actually control our government! But there’s a new Fast & Furious movie every two or three years, so it balances out.
you don’t. you believe them when they tell you who they are and remove them from your life.
Very easy to hate. But it’s part of the cycle.
It isn’t hate. It’s leaving the evil, cruel, and/or misinformed alone.
It’s not hate to cut horrible people out of your life. You get to pick who you let into your universe. Be picky.
Nah, I cut my parents out of my life entirely due to the racism they have allowed to grow and fester around them in the last few years. I’m completely done with it. Not giving them any reason to think it okay or forgivable.
my dad was spouting trump shit. I don’t know if he was legit or just trying to get a rise out of me, but fuck that. il told him “I don’t associate with trump supporters, so fix that or move on. you raised me better than that, stop drinking Kool aid.”
Or, do what a disturbing number of people have done and make them the centrepiece of your entire life.
Posters all over your house, stickers and flags all over your mobility scooter, hats, T-shirts, the lot.
One of our neighbors had a MAGA collar for their dog…THEIR DOG. Why do they need to drag their DOG into this? He was a good boy. (Was, because the dog passed away from cancer a year or two ago.)
You don’t.
I haven’t talked to parts of my family the same way I used to. We don’t seek each other out anymore, though some people who do still have connections means we will still see each other for big events like thanksgiving or by happenstance.
Some of them probably think i’m an evil satan worshipping communist based on the last time we argued politics, which was either late 2015 or early to mid 2016, and I was your average slightly socialistic leftist who had just learned about Bernie’s policies for the first time.
With the genocide going on, i feel even more isolated, since I have some family who are harris voters who support israel, and aren’t exactly happy about how vocal I am about palestine. Christian liberal zionism hasn’t been something I could talk people out of.
You uhh, you don’t.
Well, thats the thing. Once the mask is off it can’t be put back on. My relations have cooled with the Trump supporters I know. At least they stopped putting signs out in the neighborhood.
Yeah. I’ve simply stopped associating with Trump supporters. My life doesn’t have room for that kind of hate, so i cut them out.
I have a lot of empathy for people who have beloved relatives like fathers or brothers that are caught in the mind trap. No one really WANTS to cut ties with kin.
My last remaining ties with them are my parents. I know they’re not hateful people - they raised me to be a loving person. Their brainwashing has taken the form of simply not trusting legitimate news sources, which is the hardest kind to overcome.
How do you reason with someone who doesn’t trust any sources of information?
Why go back to normal? Conservatives all over the world have revealed themselves to be 5th columns who will take any opportunity at power, even if it means working with foreign powers.
They seem to have a fundamental belief that God is on their side and no matter how bad things get He will protect them because only they are real people.
There hasn’t been any normal for 8 years plus now. Somewhere between 30 and 45% of the population are openly trying for fascism.
Realistically it’s only a matter of when unless we make some pretty damned sweeping changes which they are going to fight tooth and nail.
We need to unrig the judicial system. We need to unrig the voting system. We need to put guardrails up on media disinformation. And we need to start holding some of these fucking politicians accountable for openly lying in campaign. We need to roll back the dictator privileges they managed to shove in at the last moment for the president. We need to hold some of these oligarchs accountable for crimes.
They should lock Musk up for a month. Go ahead and have him shit himself that he’s not above the law.
I don’t know who the next Republican president will be. But you can bet money there’s going to be plenty of bloodshed once they decide to do whatever they want with complete and total immunity.
Way longer than 8 years. Depending on your perspective and level of privilege, it’s been decades, generations, or the entire history.
Things got bad after Obama got elected in 2008 and the racists lost their shit. But they were also bad after Bush started two wars, or when Bush got installed as preznit in the first place in 2000. Or when Gingrich went after Clinton’s penis in 1998. Or when Gingrich took over the Congress in 1994. Or when Clinton first got elected in 1992 and the racists and militias lost their shit and started bombing things. Or the year before that when the other Bush started a war. Or when Reagan broke multiple laws and got away with it, thanks to Ollie North. Or when Reagan got elected in the first place in 1980. Or when Nixon broke enough laws flagrantly enough to get impeached in 1974. Or when he bombed the shit out of SE Asia. Or when Johnson started a war in Vietnam. Or… I mean it just keeps going endlessly. But that’s just my lifetime. If you are Black or Native American the fuckery goes back as far as when white people first stepped foot here.
If you just tweak what you’re looking at a little bit you can easily move that statement back to all of recorded history.
I’m sure the sentence for everything Musk has done has to be far more than a month (the election stuff aside, he has some shady financial stuff surrounding the purchase of Twitter and probably Tesla stock, etc). They need to lock him up as long as they would lock up the rest of us if we did that.
