More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
Is this… tilted slightly?
Am I leaning?
left-leaning, maybe
Mine curves to the left
I sometimes think they turn conservative because women won’t date them.
I’m pretty sure women don’t want to date people who have any sort of disposition that leans towards hating them or believing that women are lesser than men.
Unfortunately, a lot of men learned that way of thinking early in life(from family and/or media) and it ruins any attempt at a relationship, then they blame women and run to the very people who set them up to fail for validation, or find new ones like that sex trafficker with the pizza boxes, or that canadian psychologist who sugar coats sexism online. Repeat ad nauseum.
I have an old high school friend who is very much into the whole Andrew Tate thing. His parents were separated, I don’t know the details as to why, but I do know that his father was a lot more stable than his mother, and I do sometimes wonder if he had lived with his father, if he would have turned out better.
He also thinks the earth is flat because… otherwise a ball would roll off a table. QED.
So not exactly firing an all cylinders to begin with.
“Divorced dad energy” is one of those meme things that everyone likes to make fun of when a dude does anything, but no one likes to address that same poison when divorced moms act like fools.
My mother would drag me to various groups that would absolutely shit on “men” constantly, and I got to hear that constantly. It was weird growing up in that environment, but luckily for me it was before the redpill trash all over the internet. Managed to find some good friends in high school
That’s a interesting point. My mother was substantially more mentally stable when I was a child then when my siblings were born.
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academics like peterson
LMFAO
Didn’t he recently lose his license to practice because he was saying bullshit that no real psychiatrist would agree with?
Not yet! He has to go to training first
Didn’t he recently lose his license to practice because he was saying bullshit that no real psychiatrist would agree with?
In the age of social media I imagine people are actually a lot more antisocial than we used to be…. And if young men and young women are all online more now and actually go out to interact in person less than we used to, this would make it a lot more difficult for young men to interact with the young women long enough to ask them out….
Online is heavily skewed in women’s favor unfortunately. I had a female coworker that had 100+ matches on bumble and kept complaining how hard it was too keep track of. She wasn’t even very pretty and she had an empty pot for head. Meanwhile male coworkers really struggle. No surprise This will make some males bitter and lash out. Even if they do find a partner Worst part is if the social skills are bad it is a bad relationship. I hope we are not seeing a universe 25 style collapse.
I wasn’t specifically talking about online dating, but women are generally more desired by men than vice versa, whether online or in person.
I can’t imagine online dating to be useful than for more than a handful of people in my opinion.
I was more saying since we are all online more, we are all interacting in person a lot less, which allows for more organic interactions…
Yeah I agree. Wanting to Go back the good old days is what is causing this trend. Though Realistically all the social skills in the world won’t bag you the girl if you are average right now. I knew a few coworkers that wouldn’t even talk to a guy unless he was a 666 man. 6 figures, 6 feet, 6 pack. No surprise they are single. I wonder if their POV changed overtime, they were in early 20s at the time. I know my old roommate lowered her standards super hard over 30 to bag a husband.
Anecdotal evidence is not the same as actual data across populations
The Sample size is rather small from personal experience. I am curious if such data exists.
I can’t remember which app it was, but I tried online dating over a decade ago. I noticed I wasn’t getting very many responses to any messages I sent out, and it was basically after saying yes to everyone and I had spent some time on the app, so I got to the point where I just messaged everyone a generic opener….
I talked to my female roommate at the time and I got a couple generic photos of her, she was a young mid 20’s woman who was very pretty but idk average for a young beautiful woman.
I created a new profile for myself, and also a second profile for her, I let her choose the most attractive photos of me and I chose some dorky not very attractive but still cute I guess photos of her….
She had ten messages before we were even able to upload the first photo after just creating the account.
This doesn’t mean that she got messages from guys who were someone she would consider dating. It just means she got a lot of messages. I think guys don’t realize how many messages the women get. They have to wade through hundreds of “hi how are you doing” messages before they can even start a conversation. Whereas the guys have to send out messages that are unique and capture the attention of ladies to get a conversation started. Neither is ideal, it’s just how it is
That’s very true and likely why she felt so overwhelmed. No one is really winning. She would have had a really good match in there but drowned in a sea of options.
In this case we only left the app open for a couple hours that afternoon before we deleted it, but it’s just anecdotal evidence that show if we are specifically talking about online dating the problems are just as bad for either sex if we are talking about cis heteronormative relationships
A really sad point. Though I think drowning in option is better for self esteem than 0. If males had plenty I doubt we would see such a trend.
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Hagmaxxing…? Do you hear yourself? None of this is based on reality.
Edit: oh you’ve already been removed on another instance, nice
The opposite to conservative is progressive, not liberal
Especially in Europe where liberal is more typically used for economically liberal.
Which tend to be conservative socially.
The opposite is Socialism, not progressivism.
A few folks have mentioned that these charts
- conflate liberal/conservative with the dominant left/right parties in these nations
- does not include people who do not identify with one of those dominant parties
- have some somewhat unreliable stats magic behind them
A lot of young men in the US are reporting themselves as “not a Democrat or Republican”, and that’s causing a lot of this proportional shift. I would bet that characterizes a lot of folks on this site who are not conservative.
https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/3/13/24098780/politics-gender-divide-generation-z-youth-men-women
https://www.allendowney.com/blog/2024/01/28/is-the-ideology-gap-growing/
Exactly. I would be almost as upset with being classified as a liberal or a Democrat as I would be a conservative.
At the same time I know many people (my brother included) that claim to be “independent” because they think that the trump camp is somehow outside the conservative camp, and therefore respond “independent” on polls. Because they think “I’m not democrat or conservative, I just want to drain the swamp” and then support trump, who is literally a swamp.
On the flip side, in Europe extreme right parties are mostly being propped up by young men, while in other age groups men and women vote relatively similarly, which supports this finding.
And no way the UK is left leaning like that.
Edit: read Jane Jacobs system of survival
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Have you read it? Don’t judge too quickly!Actually on second thought nvm. If that’s you’re response then I’m out :)
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Thanks for explaining. I did a bad job explaining it, but I’m only taking a short break irl and am just jumping into this conversation. I’ve removed that section of my comment.
The book explains this in more detail and I recommend it. We don’t get much deep discussion into what it means to be conservative/liberal and the purpose of the book isn’t to go into that but it does provide a framework. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs
But now your comment is just “here’s 10 hour read that explains everything, I will not elaborate” like in this post: https://sh.itjust.works/post/26206134
You can at least leave info about what it should explain, at best you can summarise, but it is possible that you will not persuade people to read that.
From the wiki page, it looks like the idea behind the book is viable, but nothing is scientific about it, no research, no further developments, it’s just how the author sees the system work. This may be insightful but should be taken with a large grain of salt
Why?
When I think of all the women & girls in my life that I care about, I remember that I could never be a conservative. It would be a betrayal.
Assuming this is accurate, I’m pleased to see men in the UK bucking the trend.
People like you are why we cannot discuss political ideas without being put into a bucket and given some horrific label. Being conservative doesnt make u sexist some conservative views are sexist same as some progressive view are sexist. Stop spouting hate like politics is a football team and practice critical thinking where you can take ideas from all perspectives.
As women gain independence, frightened men turn to patriarchal solutions. Hence a turd like JD Vance spouting hateful and controlling rhetoric on podcasts and Ahole Tate brainwashing adolescent boys. Fuck these people.
Young men and young women haven’t been around long enough to have seen anything change like your suggesting. If that were the case it would be older women and men who are changing
The study about low skill gamers being the most likely to be sexist over voice chat will forever be on my mind.
🌳 Die? No. We lost them, and now we cannot find them.
Now I hear Treebeard whining about modern females and how none of them want to be Entwives for alpha Ents
If you read the books, you’ll find that you’re not far off.
Poor Treebeard…
So probably -
When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
Men want the days back when they were more in charge and didn’t have to worry about consequences so much.
Probably as an over reaction to lost wages and the feeling of being completely unable to secure financial freedom for their family if they even had one which likely makes them feel like failures thus the hard pivot back to forceful ideology.
I mean unfortunately expectations of what a “man is” hasn’t changed much since pre world wars with added consumerism since.
So it’s equality where the equality is worse for everyone and social stigmas still are abound. It’s a powder keg.
I mean minus South Korea, the graphs still show young men leaning left at pretty steady rates. More young women have moved left though, which is perhaps unsurprising given how hostile right wing politics is towards them. (And how open that’s become recently)
When the fuck were those days? I’ve been alive since 1977, and at no point since have I been “in charge” or “not had to worry about consequences”
Those “good old days” are mostly just an invention of modern propaganda, a narrative that people nowadays tell themselves about the past, so they have some sort of ideal reality to work towards and hope for the future. Norman Rockwell, George Quaintance type shit, and now you can have it AI generated. Never mind the leagues of working class men that still went underpaid, lived in shithole stick houses, died of the black lung, never mind the segregation and systemic racism and redlining which reinforced all this shit, never mind the fact that the system is and always has been a zero sum game with haves and have-nots. That all gets whitewashed, and people get presented some ahistorical vision of the good old days when you could get a king sized snickers for a nickel.
Probably somewhere in the 1800s
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Different time scales on nearly all the charts
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no definition for what is conservative vs what is liberal
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Divergence has occurred within the past 10 yesrs
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Date range is floating for 18 to 29 year olds
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no data for equality
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no data for relative power
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no data for consequence
The data just…doesn’t support this premise, so probably not.
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Another Lemmy post with no source in the main post.
Had a hunch from the bg color: Source
Edit: Paywall Bypass
Does FT have that color copyrighted/trademarked? They’re the only ones who seem to use it
Difficult to assess this info without knowing how the data was created.
Also hard to believe the American average is +20 leaning lib. The country is represented by a fascist party and a centrist party, and anything more left than the centrist party is considered “far left”.
The graph is about young people, not the entire population. Young people in America are historically more progressive than older people.
Also why does liberal and conservative have to be on an absolute scale? The words liberal and conservative seem to me at least be about pushing politics in one direction or another. Because policy is always subject to change, shouldn’t the words liberal and conservative be relative to the political system they exist within?
Yes, “liberal” and “conservative” are relative, not absolute terms. There’s a concept known as the Overton Window which describes exactly this shift of what is considered the “center” and what is considered a radical left/right position in any given society at any given time.
The idea that people should vote for their representatives, for example, was once considered an extremist take that could ruin civilization itself if implemented. The Overton Window shifted and nowadays even most Fascists will at least pretend in public to agree with it.
And, I did miss that important detail.
It doesn’t have to be an absolute scale of course, but then why show 4 countries where all seem to deviate from the center? Are these country graphs even comparable?
Yeah I agree, it’s not a very good graph. I just get frustrated when people ridicule the US political system for everything. We have a lot to fix (like what’s causing women to become more liberal), but I think we need to focus on what’s actionable and reasonable to fix. We can’t become +20 more liberal overnight.
The Y axis here is not an absolute international political compass. It measures which political party each person favors, and judging by that country’s local standards categorizes that party as either left or right.
A rising number in the US chart means a larger number of people prefer democrats over republicans. It doesn’t mean that people’s stances are necessarily moving further left. Similarly, it’s no coincidence that the inflection point where UK numbers rise by a lot correspond to Brexit: the party seen as responsible for the unpopular change lost a lot of support, but that doesn’t mean the population has so sharply moved drastically more progressive in such a short time.
The US population is largely some variety of “liberal” meaning vaguely left. The problem is the structure of our government favors land, not population.
What the fuck South Korea? Also you just know that sudden rise in liberal men in the UK is the Tories’ doing.
SK is wild right now. Women are taking part in the 4B movement (no dating, sex, childbirth, or marriage. The Korean words start with “B”). There was a online feminist group that got people so heated they thought they were sneaking hand signals into “male” media and they were getting people fired. If certain characters didn’t come out with risqué enough clothing, male netizens would blame some secret feminist in the company. Women are assaulted if they’re confused for a feminist due to just their hairstyle. A book (“Kim Jiyoung 1989” I think) that is, like, baby’s first feminist literature, can have your spouse leave you. Men say you can’t date a woman whose read it. All the book is about is the subtle sexism women face. They have an epidemic of “molka,” which are secret cameras in women’s bathrooms among other places. Women tell each other to bring nail polish to paint over the screws to protect themselves. Their new president is looking to abolish the gender equality ministry and blames feminism for the low birth rate.
TL;DR: Yeah, it’s pretty bad over there right now.
Edit: Here’s a two part video that goes over this surprisingly well for being about gacha games. Part 1 and Part 2.
Holy fuck. There are legitimately third world countries better than this what the fuck.
Can confirm, it’s comparatively (sometimes even without comparing) a shithole in every other way out here, but it’s not NEARLY as bad for gender equality. Still pretty bad don’t get me wrong, but at least the government isn’t actively trying to dismantle institutions formed to combat gender inequality 🤷♂️
oh yeah, South Korea has gone off the rails recently. lots of news stories about men assaulting women for the assumption that they’re feminists, anti-woman politicians being elected, women losing their jobs for being (or assumed to be) feminists, it’s all Very Not Good.
The Tories are really good at convincing people to hate them, fuck the Tories
It’s very easy because the Tories have recently decided that the reason people don’t like them is because they’re not fascist enough, so they’ve doubled down and decided to be more fascist. At least trying to be, but it’s difficult to be fascist when you lost power due to being awful fascists.
Weirdly people didn’t want that, and so now they’re even less popular.
People have always hated the Tories, however I think the recent hate can go back to a particular prime minister whose grave is now a gender neutral bathroom.
In the north of England certainly. Not sure how much people in London care about Thatcher.
I was thinking more recently about Boris and his various illegal activities. Oh and the crashing of the economy by the disability hire. Or the fact that our most recent excuse for a Tory prime minister basically allowed the Extreme right-wing free reign because he was incapable of standing up to them.
Conservative being down is a good presentation choice.
From a personal point of view, I agree, but playing devil’s advocate, really the chart should be flipped so that the left/rightness is shown that way and the dates are on the vertical axis.
It’d also be good if the time periods matched, and if there was a source for the data.
The swapped colors aren’t, though.
The important thing here is to know how did they measure young people’s political ideologies. I wouldn’t expect it was self-perceived as currently, people have a hard time admitting they are conservative compared to admitting they sympathize with a conservative party.
If it was determined by a questionnaire, it would be interesting to see what questions were included. Maybe the questions weren’t well planned and that’s it. Maybe they equalled feminist takes to
progressiveliberal ones, which is something that can be discussed. In this case, I would be picky about the origin of the graphics.This seems to be the original source of this graphic. But it just says “FT analysis of General Social Surveys of Korea, Germany & US […]”
If the importance of women’s issues like reproductive freedom were overrepresented relative to other issues, this would definitely account for at least part of this difference. But “importance” itself is already a very subjective concept. It’s hard to put numbers on these things and create a scoring system that’s actually useful.
It’s weird that the axes of where “centre” is remain stable over time. Can you imagine comparing “left vs right” between the 1890s and the 1920s? Like a bunch of stuff happened in between, history happened, and that tends to redefine left, right and centre.
Great observation! This is called the Overton Window
The gap sounds plausible, but I highly doubt the overall positions relative to 0.
E.g., the Federal Republic of Germany has had conservative chancellors for 51 years out of the 75 since it was founded. We did not have a constant left majority (I assume that is what they mean by liberal, since the actual sense of the term doesn’t make sense as an opposite to “conservative”).
Edit: I fucked up, this is only about people below 30.
These graphs only cover the demographic of 18-29 year olds, which historically do lean heavily towards progressive.
The difference by sex is the really interesting feature.
That explains it and I did indeed overlook it. Thanks for the heads up.
I genuinely fear for future for women across the world
Lol yeah woman were much safer, better educated, and financially independent historically. /S
That’s a different argument - yes, things were worse in the past than they are now. That doesn’t mean that things won’t get worse than they are now in the future.
It also doesn’t mean they won’t remain exactly as they currently are, or get better.
That’s true, but it doesn’t negate the point you are replying to.
Looks at past. Looks at future, well shit climate change is going to savage human life on earth. Checks notes woman are human. Shit bros your right I fear for womans futures too!
Read “why women had better sex under socialism, and other arguments for economic independence”
What if they like being on top? 👀
I dont understand the joke
🤦 Sex under socialism versus being on top
Oh I think there is going to be a sequel where she covere tops’ rights within socialism
I’m no sexpert but I think when people say they are a top or a bottom they are talking specifically about gay sex?
Although maybe now it refers to bdsm stuff I don’t actually know
