people should be reminded that posts like these aren’t really critical of people for not taking the bus. they’re critical of systems and planning that don’t make you want to take the bus.
if the bus is always packed people will not want to ride it. that’s not on you.
if the bus is unreliable, that’s not on you.
if there’s no bus or public transit that goes where you want to go out somewhere of a reasonable walking distance, that’s not on you.
if where you’re going is not walkable in the first place, then taking the bus is pointless since once you arrive you’d need a car anyway.
demanding change however is on you.
it’s not like cars are awesome by the way. they’re inefficient, pricy, troublesome, there’s traffic, parking… it’s stressful and it’s deadly to boot. if people are not taking the bus, the city has work to do.
I’m critical of all the people driving over sized SUVs by themselves in NYC when I’m trying to get a loaded box truck though a gridlocked intersection. Even if the city instruction doesn’t have mass transit, you do not need Escalade over a commuter car.
yeah just because you’re not riding a bus doesn’t mean you should get around with a Gigantus Pollutinator 9000 or a private jet, obviously.
An SUV in NYC is especially egregious. They could have taken the train from Yonkers, and used the bus/subway. You guys are the one city in the US that actually has decent mass transit.
If you actually live in the city, and own an SUV you are an idiot spending way too much on parking.
Sometimes being in my little car driving in NYC is more relaxing or faster. Most of the time taking public transportation takes the same amount of time as driving, so I’ll pick driving so I don’t have to be cold or hot while waiting or to deal with other people. The argument for making more public transportation faster, more frequent is a good one and would make more people use it.
You guys are the one city in the US that actually has decent mass transit.
The DC metro is a lot nicer than the NYC subway.
Blame marketing (propaganda.) Our government has given control of our information networks to corporations and corporations use those channels to blast us with consumerist propaganda 24/7. People are taught that the type of car they drive defines who they are as a person so they do what they were taught and they buy a giant tank of a vehicle so that people will see them as dependable, manly, successful, outdoorsy, etc.
I think (most) cars are awesome but want better public transit because there’s way too many people who are terrible drivers.
If driving required licensing like an airplane pilot I’d still get one. And probably enjoy driving more because I could expect people to know how to zipper merge.
I just want people to learn how the fucking stop signs work.
people have designed the systems you are crying about and people use the systems you are crying about. People make the systems and engage them, you cant keep crying about systems or nothing will change
I lost my drivers license for a false positive drug test for two weeks. I took the bus to work, which was completely fine and no big deal. But in the morning and in the evening my bus was packed to the brim with high school children, which was easily the worst part of my day.
If this is America/Canada while it could be carrying more people the sad truth is that it’s probably carrying half a dozen people because it’s likely going from one unwalkable neighborhood to another. Especially up here in BC there’s a stark difference between downtown buses running between unis, skytrain and the dense core of Vancouver to the ones you’ll see in a suburban hell like Burnaby.
Or it takes prohibitively longer than a driving.
My wife considered taking the bus to work, but it would take 2 hours to get 20 minutes down the road.
Also add the fact that a bus pass is more expensive than our car insurance.
Yea, these are some of the hardest things we need to address to make non-driving more popular in North America - overseas the increased density lends itself a lot more naturally to public transit.
Australian manages pretty good urban public transport, with a much lower density than the US
(Our rural public transport effectively doesn’t exist though)
I don’t know much about Australia, what forms public transportation are implemented over there?
Hope you’re having a good day :)
Our biggest cities normally have bus and train. About half of them have some sort of light rail/tram equivalent too. The coverage isn’t completely comprehensive, so it’s possible to find suburbs that don’t have great coverage, but by and large, it’s pretty good. Footpaths and bicycle paths are common too. The cycling infrastructure is often gappy, so you on commutes etc, you can find yourself navigating spaces without dedicated cycling infrastructure, but generally, you can get a good portion of a cycle commute on dedicated bike spaces. The only roads without a pedestrian corridor of some sort are generally major highways
In our smaller and medium cities, the trains are normally inter city, not local, so they’re not so much use as public transport, but there are generally buses, though with less coverage. Good pedestrian infrastructure even in smaller cities though. It’s harder to survive in smaller cities without a car, but possible.
Once you get out of smaller cities and in to towns and villages though, it gets harder again.
Thanks for the reply! I hope someday the US gets there :)
Melbourne has the world’s largest tram (streetcar) system!
My town (sort of- it’s a bunch or merged towns) finally got its actual grocery store back! That sort of thing is such a big deal to micromobility and public transit.
It closed down like a decade ago and we’ve had this discount merchant that nobody goes to because it’s real junk ripe with dollar store shrinkfkation issues, and if you can afford to go elsewhere, you do, and a few overpriced small town grocers that charge 2-5x what a regular grocer does.
The closest real grocery was 25 minutes by car on the highway going 70 for most of the trip. The re-opened grocery is 21 minutes by human-powered bike, assuming fitness (no, but working on it).
So now that that’s an option again, I have an actual excuse to get a cheap e-bike for shopping for fresh produce (that’s what’s most pricy at the small town gougers). I already have a nice detachable basket for shopping, so it’s the perfect out-of-house regular activity. Maybe weekly instead of monthly grocery trips. I’ll eat better, and for less overall.
Especially since I just paid 3k to fix the transmission on my car (😭😭😭). Sadly I’m rural enough I need the car, but if I don’t have to use it, I win.
Wow, that’s a bummer :-/ For me it’s 15-20 min by car assuming a few minutes walk to where I’ve parked. 25 min by bike (20 min by road but I take a safer ‘scenic route’) and about 40 min by bus and about 10 minutes of that is walking to/from the bus stop. And the bus fare gets capped at 8 trips per week so every trip thereafter is free meaning if you commute to work every day, Friday and all weekend will be unlimited free trips.
And the bus fare gets capped at 8 trips per week so every trip thereafter is free meaning if you commute to work every day, Friday and all weekend will be unlimited free trips.
This sounds amazing. Meanwhile where I’m from they recently raised prices again.
This is a massive part of the problem here in the UK too.
I just checked with Google Maps how long it would take my wife to get to work tomorrow morning. In the car it would take between 45 minutes and an hour, but public transport would take an hour and 52 minutes, with 29 minutes of that taken up by walking to bus and train stops. She would have to leave the house before 5:30 am, whereas the car would give her another hour in bed.
At the moment we’re under a yellow warning for rain too, so she would need to take waterproof clothes and probably a change of clothes too.
Until things like this are improved, it’s easy to see why lots of people still take the car :(
Dedicated lanes make a huge difference there!
Actually, that’s almost part of the problem ironically.
Most of the bus routes go down dedicated bus transitways to a main hub, which means the first bus goes 30 minutes North instead of West.
Ya outside of Vancouver metro area it’s not uncommon to see buses with like 4 people or less on it, sometimes no one.
I would use it more if I could do everything I needed in one bus ride there and back but you would need to take a bus to one area to do something, then a bus to a second area to do another thing, then a bus to a third area to do something else, then a bus back home.
Way too much hassle if you have multiple things to do.
Burnaby isn’t so bad as long as you’re on a transit corridor. Granted it sucks outside those corridors though.
Well, I need to stop by fedex, go the the grocery store, and pick up dry cleaning all before I get home. Then I need to make dinner. So, if the bus takes 1.5 hours and driving takes 15 minutes… the car wins.
We should really say fuck urban sprawl. I’d love to walk to work 🤷
I can do all of those things with a 5 minutes walk in my European city. And I don’t even live in the city centre.
Mixed zoning and walkable cities are the solution.
That sounds like a dream. What country do you live in?
Italy. Then of course not everybody is as lucky as me (e.g. people living in the countryside, or working far away from home), but the majority of people can enjoy having all their basic services at a walking distance. Especially if they live in the city centre.
Not living in the city is my solution. It’s great.
ex Londoner here, I can plot that route in my head by walking around Clapham Common station where I used to live.
Lucky
In Munich and I’m the same, work to home is 20mins on PT, and everything I need is available at the home end of the journey. If I need to go to a bigger supermarket or something less regular I can take a different way home and stop in the middle. The problem isn’t PT, it’s urban sprawl and poor amenity planning.
Well those things are like in the same mall where the parking absolutely sucks, so bus was way easier.
Mall?
For me it’s an 11 minute drive, 16 minute bike ride, or 58 minutes walk according to Google. Not sure about the bus since it doesn’t calculate time for multiple stops.
Perhaps, but bike and walking time don’t change based on traffic
how is a grocery store in a mall?
That’s how it is in the Philippines.
Parking usually sucks, because it’s completely full.
I’ve even seen cars line up for a space to park at the mall.
The parking garages are usually big, but Manila is overcrowded by a significant amount.
Pretty normal in most European countries
Even if there’s only two or three things a month that transit is better for, you’re gonna get reductions in traffic. It doesn’t have to be a full car replacement to be worth bigtime investments.
And it’s the only thing that scale.
Seriously, tho!
Madison, WI just launched Bus Rapid Transit only on one route so far. But that route goes right past the stadium and arenas where the UW Badgers play their games, the city and university performing arts centers, the state Capitol, many popular music venues, and the State Street pedestrian mall. It has free park-and-ride lots at each end of the route. Lots of people say that they will ride in for events at these venues, so BRT hasn’t solved all our issues, but it’s lessening congestion and helping even drivers get around more quickly.
Current citty dweller here, having 200 people within 30m (in three dimensions) of my bed at night is unsustainable. Trust me theres a middleground somewhere
Well…. Having fewer people is a good solution.
Lets assume we disqualify the cars going left ro right, and if we also assume each car only has 1 person per car, that means the cars is 32.
A bus that size is usually built to fit around 50ish people using every seat, but none standing.
I ride my local bus everyday. It’s NEVER full like that. I might have 6 people on the bus. Sometimes I’m the only rider.
So, yeah, a bus CAN hold roughly as many prople as cars, (again assuming only 1 person per car, which probably isn’t the case 100%), the reality is that’s not functionally true.
Even if it’s only carrying 6 people it’s still doing a better job than the cars which on average probably have 1-2 people in each of them.
Yes, but it’s also the length of 4 cars, and uses diesel.
You can see on the road that it takes up one lane like the cars and is equivalent to about 2.5 cars lined up accounting for gaps. Also the point of this post is that if public transport was normalized then this bus wouldn’t have six people in it because half of these cars would be people on the bus instead.
On the road, 4 cars would take more space lined up one behind another.
I don’t know what the law is where you live but i know what it is where i live, so excuse my weird metrics for a sec while i explain how wrong what you said is.
In order to facilitate proper reaction time for yourself as the driver, you must have about two “seconds” (as in if you stared at the road beneath the car in front of you, your car would be there in about two seconds) between your car and the one in front of you.
Meaning the faster the vehicles are, the larger the gaps, and if we’re talking 4 vehicles, it’s 3 gaps.
For maneuverability’s sake, it’s worth mentioning the “wave propagation” that happens during brake time, but I won’t get into it.
The bus I ride every morning is always so full you struggle to get past the standing people to get to the door. The bus home is usually a little less busy, but I’m currently writing this comment while having to stand on that bus.
Wow, that actually sounds awful.
The morning bus just sucks to get off, but I get on at one of the first stops so I pretty much always have a seat. I even nap most of the way there as it’s a ~40min ride.
The ride home I’ve often gotta stand for the first 3-4 stops until I can get a seat. Then I can just peacefully watch youtube or scroll lemmy, ignoring the world around me for a bit.
For a flat $70/mo for unlimited rides; it’s not a bad deal really. I’d rather this than driving and being frustrated dealing with the morons on the road; while paying significantly more between car payments, insurance, maintenance, and gas.
I absolutely avoided riding the bus in my native city. If a place wasn’t within a mile from a subway station then it might as well be in a different country because I’m not taking the bus there. The buses were always crowded and hot. Subway got crowded during rush hour, but at least there was good AC no matter where you stand.
We’ve only got busses. The climate control is usually pretty good though; decent AC in the summer and heated in winter. Just the occasional shitty driver that doesn’t set it correctly.
Tbh the worst part is inconsolable crying babys. That’s been pretty frequent this summer; but isn’t usually a problem throughout the rest of the year. Otherwise people just keep to themselves, it’s pretty peaceful.
tbf, it’s only possibly not true because of intentional choices in city design and general social attitudes.
That being said, I live in a pretty shitty area for bus transport (I’m in the USA, no less) and the busses are still usually mostly full when I use them.
There are many other reasons why a bus might not be used at full capacity beyond just city design combined with the general attitude of “society”.
In individual cases, sure. But a well-designed city and public transport system should not be running skeleton capacities at daylight hours on the regular.
Badly designed transit is not a condemnation of all public transit. Specially when in most of the world public transit is vastly more occupied than in the US and Canada, by the simple fact of actually connecting places people want to go, where people can then walk around when they get there. Parking lots are not destinations.
I lived in a European capital until 28 and never got a driver’s license because public transport was faster than driving through horrible traffic.
Moved to the US and in less than a year had to buy a car because it was impossible to do anything without one. And that was in am area with considerably better public transport than usual for the US. It was just my wife driving, but after a few years I had to get a driver’s license too and buy a second car. I like walking, I prefer good public transit to driving, but it’s simply not an option in most of the US.
Oh, and another story. In my hometown I absolutely loved the subway as THE way to get around. It was cool in the summer, warm in the winter, and average wait was 2-3 minutes. I visited New York one summer and as per habit I went to take the subway to my destination. It was sweltering hot and I waited 20 minutes for a train. Up to that point I considered NYC to be the closest US city to what I’m used to, but that would have been a deal breaker.
is it not packed because all those people who could be inside are outside driving their own cars?
is it not packed because the bus line doesn’t have much demand?
either case is not an argument against public transit. the point is to make public transit more convenient and utilized.
True but people have less of a problem when I masturbate in my car.
Honestly? I judge you every time man, but I can’t tear my eyes away
Majestic, isn’t it? I don’t send dick pics because they just can’t capture its grandeur.
Yeah. You meed a better setup for that. Just a basic 10x+oculus doesn’t cut it. Your microscope needs some immersion fluid for the 400x.
I’m starting to develop a vigor for public transit to match the one forced on us for car infrastructure in the 60s. Bigger, taller, more, I want 3 bus lanes and a tram line to any town in the country. We can do no wrong taking back all the space we gave to the car, as long as the garbage truck fits on the street, car users can share 1 lane both directions. Take their parking, take their license for rolling stops and using their phone, gift them e-bikes.
Make transit free, let the highways rot, expand the railways. Sorry for that pothole, all the money was used up by rail.
Just anything better than we have now. If we have to act fast and break things, so be it.
, car users can share 1 lane both directions.
Oh God, I don’t trust them with that.
I visited India 30 years ago and (in the southern part of the country at least) the major highways between cities had a single paved lane in the middle and then just dirt and gravel on the steeply-sloped sides. So on bus trips the drivers would stick to the middle until the last possible second and then veer off so that just the right wheels were on the pavement as they passed each other while tipping crazily to each side. I made the huge mistake on my first trip of sitting in the front seat; I later corrected my mistake by always taking the fucking train, which didn’t have this problem.
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lmao, I know that feeling. When I was younger, whole of body, and lived in a shittier area, there were multiple times that no amount of sprinting, shouting, and waving my arms after the bus which REFUSED to make its scheduled stop at the location I was very clearly standing at could penetrate the inscrutable thought processes of the fucking bus driver.
In my experience (lived in four countries, ~30 cities / towns), public transport just feels unsafe. It’s always a choice between crazies shouting, groups of teenagers playfighting and blasting their mobile phones on full volume or just the good old rapey stare from strangers. I’d rather not be exposed to all the worst elements of society at close quarters in a metal tube I can’t escape from.
Isn’t that a bit self-fulfilling, though? If more people rode the bus, then it wouldn’t be all creeps and teens.
For my part, having lived in Philly where the people on the busses are actually quite pleasant, it was still too inefficient to make it work. A ten minute drive would be over an hour on the bus, and god help you if the bus was running late (I’m kidding, the bus was always running late). That’s a problem that gets worse when there are more riders. As soon as it got too cold to ride a bike, busses would be completely full and unable to take more riders, which meant you’d have to wait for the next one.
Employers aren’t very understanding about being late. Even if you had a direct route from your house to your job, you’d still need to account for extra time for delays. Taking the bus means you pack on two extra hours onto your commute every day, which even at minimum wage is $3,770 worth of time every year. At a living wage, it’s over $10,000 per year. Even with upkeep and insurance, anybody getting paid enough to live practically needs a car. And that’s if you live and work in the city, which is the ideal situation for public transit. Move to the burbs, and that bus ain’t going where you are.
It seems like it would be a self fulfilling prophecy, you are right.
At the same time, having lived in London for 10 years… This is from today: https://red.artemislena.eu/r/london/comments/1fprfcy/i_cant_even_take_the_bus_in_peace_due_to_sexual/
The argument that more people taking public transport would somehow fix this makes no sense in a place like London. It’s a gigantic city with public transport permanently bursting at the seams.
A bus through a dodgy area at midnight won’t feel safe unless it’s policed somehow. I don’t know where the resources for that could possibly come from.
Hi, which countries did you live in? I’ve also lived in several countries throughout my life and only experienced what you’re describing in the US (at least in the city I live in, maybe it’s a bias)
Public transport in London was probably the worst. Case in point: https://red.artemislena.eu/r/london/comments/1fprfcy/i_cant_even_take_the_bus_in_peace_due_to_sexual/
The argument that more people taking public transport would somehow fix this makes no sense in a place like London. It’s a gigantic city with public transport permanently bursting at the seams.
A bus through a dodgy area at midnight won’t feel safe unless it’s policed somehow. I don’t know where the resources for that could possibly come from.
City seems to have some bias, if mostly the worst elements drive public transport.
And I am sure drivers are furious about that bus lane.
But how else will the oil companies increase profits for their shareholders?
by increasing prices while suppressing wages like everyone else?
PSA: There is no such thing as “car lanes.” I understand how easy it is to fall into the trap of calling them that, but we should really try to avoid it.
There are only “general purpose” lanes and lanes that exclude cars in favor of vehicles that don’t suck, such as bicycles or buses. Calling general-purpose lanes “car lanes” is car-supremacist loaded language because it implies that other types of vehicles using them are interlopers, rather than valid road users who are also being entitled to be there.
Edit: any of you downvoters care to explain what reason you have for doing so that isn’t car apologism?
People refer to them as car lanes because they are designed and prioirtized for cars. Can a bicycle fit in the lane? Sure, but the lane was not designed for bicycle and in most places the lanes are not designed to share with a bicycle. Many people feel unsafe on a bike with 60+km/h traffic flying by them with barely enough room to pass.
They seem just as well-suited for busses like in the post.
When there’s no bike lane available I’ll bike in the middle of the next general lane, so they’ll need to use another general lane to pass. They won’t give us barely enough room, it’s safer to just take the whole lane.
You will be tailgated, honked at, rolled coal, maybe even hit by a mirror on an agressive pass by a truck if caught doing that in my area. I barely even feel safe walking on the sidewalk as most people don’t look for pedestrians at intersections or entrances. Yes the lanes are meant for everyone, but the nature of a car or truck means they can easily take more than their fair share of the lane if they want.
In my area they’ll do that anyways no matter what we do, they just hate cyclists for being in the way at all. So it’s safer to take the lane when they’re flying past you with barely any room to pass.
I’d rather take the safer option that makes them angry, than the polite unsafe option and then they’re still aggressive anyways.
Compared to a proper bike lane, that is not a safe option. What happens if a distracted driver rear ends you?
Oh no disagreement there, a proper bike lane is safest.
None of that makes them “car lanes.” They are intended for all road users and car drivers have no more right to them than anybody else.
(Source: my traffic engineering degree)
Intended for all users but designed quite specifically for one type of user. I can make a product designed to clean glass, it can clean other things but its intended purpose is to clean glass, this doesn’t change it from glass cleaner to an all-purpose cleaner. “General lanes” are designed for cars and the vast difference of needs between different transport types means we should do more at building and seperating specific lanes.
I talk as a person who rode the bicycle and walked more than driven a car that in a typical city centre designed for cars I prefer to live poluting with my car rather than die hit by one while riding the bicycle in a hurry to work.
Your sentiment is fine. The reason you’re being downvoted isn’t because of your desire to drive a car for your own safety, it’s because it appears as if you feel that is the only solution.
This community is interesting because despite the name many users here understand a significant change does need to occur before vehicles can be drummed out at bigger percentages. Many also know that modern infrastructure and working expectations means that a car is the only way a lot of people can make ends meet.
In your case there may be an alternative route, a bus you can take, or even car pooling, amongst other options depending on the location. The answer isn’t continuing to pollute, that’s just the easy response. But you’re right, biking is dangerous and there are motorists out there who have an unhealthy emotional relationship with the road, and against bicyclists. So stay safe, alright?
Just maybe also look at alternatives whilst doing so.
Wow, I never expected that elaborated answer, thank you. To be honest I love the bicycle and can’t wait until the autumn rains stop and the good white finnish winter starts for some cool rides. It just requires more preparation and shower time each morning, but twice a week is great.
I have been so close to an accident several times that makes me think, what a sad way to end my life in a hurry to get my ass into work. I even love my job, but still it’s so absurd to precipitate an accident by hurrying to make it for 8 o’clock in the morning every damn day.
I’ve also used the bus a lot, but despite the last technology pros like vehicle gps tracking it takes three times longer to get to work than by car and is quite boring too.
To sum up I think the best solution would be to remove like 90% of the asfalt roads. If you want to drive, then get you some vehicle that can ride the mountains around the city.
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Depends if it’s full or not. I live in a city with decent public bus transport. Outside of rush hour those buses are just mostly empty and sometimes we have a grid lock of empty buses.
Yes this this is clearly a picture of an empty bus at 2AM when nobody is trying to get anywhere.
Require better utilization of the cars or you have to take the bus. Pretty simple.
From my experience bus is carrying just the driver
