A great way to tell if they mean “anti-imperialist” as “against the conquering and subjugating of other groups” or instead just “in favor of anyone that declares themselves to be against the United States and Western Europe.”
in favor of anyone that declares themselves to be against the United States and Western Europe.
make this the primary pillar of your politics and you’ll be right 90% of the time.
Eh, more so when going against Russia and China. They peddle propaganda like a farmer flings manure on their field.
Most of China’s alleged propaganda is just uncomfortable truths for Americans, like that our system is responsible for more death than almost all others combined since World War 2.
in favor of anyone that declares themselves to be against the United States and Western Europe.
make this the primary pillar of your politics and you’ll be right 90% of the time.
Yeah, oppose those degenerate effeminate globalhomo Westerners, king! 👑👑👑👑👑
Imperial Japan rather famously fought against the United States and various Western European colonial powers. Had you lived back during the second world war era, would you have viewed them favorably?
I did say “90%”, not “100%”
But to be clear, the conflict between America and Japan was a clash between two expanding empires. We didn’t fight Japan because of an outpouring of empathy for the Koreans and Chinese.
How about as this meme displays, Ukraine and Uyghurs. Still 90%?
Not stoning gay people to death. Still 90%?
Allowing people to elect their leaders by voting in a democracy. Still 90%?
Giving women the same rights as men (even allowing them to drive!). Still 90%?
Freedom of press? Freedom of association? Freedom of speech? Still 90%?
Similar can be said of a number of our enemies today though, especially Russia. This isn’t to say that we support the Ukrainians purely based on empathy or that the US isn’t still an exploitative power, but just deciding that anyone that doesn’t like the west must be good will inevitably lead one to bad conclusions, because no country does literally everything wrong, and because oftentimes, the enemy of your enemy is just another enemy who’s interests happen to be misaligned with the first one.
just deciding that anyone that doesn’t like the west must be good
Assuming you’re talking about the average tankie, this isn’t the position they hold. Their argument is “America is the greater evil, therefore supporting America’s enemies is the lesser evil, even if those enemies aren’t good themselves.” Russia is about as rabidly anticommunist as America is these days, but most communists around the world support Russia against America because America is very clearly the greater evil. The whole conflict in Ukraine wouldn’t have started in the first place if western powers didn’t back a color revolution to replace the Russian-leaning president of Ukraine with a Europe-leaning-and-also-fascist one.
If Zelenskyy seems like a fascist to you, one wonders how you’d react to an actual fascist.
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lmao the mods remove shit you can find on wikipedia as “misinformation”, not beating the fascism allegations .world
you are now banned from: worldnews@lemmy.ml; hexbear.net; lemmygrad.ml
Those are all badges of honor. Of which I’ve only achieved one.
those are rookie numbers, you gotta get those numbers up man
Thankfully this instance is defederated from hex and grad. So there’s no way I can at this point LOL. Not that anyone really has to try. One only has to act rational around them and point out when they’re behaving irrationally.
Nothing of value was lost.
Russia was communist once and China pretends to still be that means I’m a bad leftist if I don’t send death threats to people who support Ukraine and Taiwan.
Actual thought process some people have listed above
The funny thing about that is that Russia was never communist. Though many don’t understand the difference between communism and Communism. The irony being that Communism was basically cosplay of communism. But never actually communism.
I mean, there was a pretty solid chance of actual communism before the Bolshevik coup. I think that if the Soviets overthrew the provisional government we’d have a fully socialist government, which could have eventually became communist.
It was still not communist, but lets remember that it could have been before the party communists made their state capitalist government in the name of communism
Adding to that, Russia was never communist or even socialist. Marx never intended ownership as a concept to be discarded, only that workers would always own what they needed to work.
I arrived at that conclusion by analyzing what ownership means. Ownership means that you either control something, or the person who controls it is accountable to you. In a state with an authoritarian dictator, such as Stalin, the dictator controls the means of production, if not directly, then through his subordinates, who are accountable to him. Therefore, in the soviet union, the workers didn’t control the means of production, Stalin did. Basically, the Soviet Union was the endstage of capitalism.
Yes, in a similar way, north Korea is closer to being a monarchie than anything else. Totalitarian monarchy.
Maybe “absolutist” would be a better term.
well yeah, because it was the soviet union that was communist.
The Soviet Union was a state. Therefore not stateless, therefore not communist. The Soviet Union had a separate political class. One that scapegoated, imprisoned, and even slaughtered any proletariat that dared criticize the vanguard party and it’s leaders. Therefore not classes, not communist.
The Soviet Union nominally implemented Communism. But communism and Communism aren’t the same thing. I could name my dog Communism. And my dog would be Communism. But not communism. The soviets cosplayed communism. But never were or will be communist.
Not all Authoritarians are Fascists.
That said, I would agree that whomever supports Putin, supports Fascism - there is nothing at all Leftwing in present day Russia, quite the contrary.
China is more complicated.
China isn’t more complicated
Fascism used State Capitalism. Political parties are corporations anyway
If someone questions their religion (like that mma guy who fought the larpers) then they lose their social credit…which leads to loss of income and property
I do think china is a capitalist hell hole that doesn’t even have universal healthcare.
But social credit thing is not real afaik. I personally asked several chinese people and they all laugh at it.
They of course can and will prosecute “enemies of the state”. But social credit is not the way they tend to do it.
Meanwhile the US literally have credit score or something like that, don’t they?
do think china is a capitalist hell hole that doesn’t even have universal healthcare.
Nazi Germany had healthcare…as far as fascist states go it has to be up there
Edit: Well mods deleted my response to the post below so I will just leave it with this
Wut?
Where are you getting your information from?because it’s all fake.
During the third Reich you needed to buy insurance or to pay a private doctor. Many industries had to provide health insurance to their workers like in the US, but many people were left uncovered and healthcare professionals did not work for the state, they were mostly self employed or employed by private hospitals.
There was not socialized healthcare like in most modern civilized countries.
they didnt say it was publicized or socialized. They just said it was healthcare.
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Yea the social score thing seems like a misunderstanding of Chinese culture.
Chinese culture (and other Asian cultures) have a history of shunning people who have committed ‘shameful’ acts out of their communities.
The MMA guy that the previous comment was talking about was shunned out of living a normal life in China for exposing the phony Kung Fu masters in China.
The Chinese government has experimented with different kinds of social score systems, though most didn’t stick. They do have a credit/banking score system just like we have in the US, too. Still, I think most of this blacklisting just comes from their culture, and not from the Chinese government enforcing social scores.
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I mean you can point out that you’re not a fan of Putin but if you’re for diplomatic solutions instead of total war you’re a fascist. No matter if you try to explain that you’re a pacifist and that war is not acceptable and arming for war just makes war that more likely. As soon as you mention NATO eastward expansion as a problematic policy you’re a tankie. Or if you mention that people saw this war coming before 2022 and it could have been stopped. Or if you point out that calling Russians “orks” is racist. Just massive downvotes and the zerg moves on.
There is zero difference between the MAGAts and the leftists in regards to how brainwashed they are. And no I’m not a centrist either.
The issue with bitching about “NATO expansionism” is that at the end of the day it’s still an alliance that countries ask to be members of due to concerns about being invaded or attacked.
countries ask to be members of
Countries like Russia in the 90s, which was denied for some reason despite the fact that their president was literally installed by the CIA.
Countries like Russia in the 90s, which was denied for some reason
Denied because Russia didn’t want to go through the usual application process. But keep peddling bullshit - it’s the only thing fascists have, after all.
and you forget the border requirements for being a NATO state. IIRC, you cant have any active border conflicts, so it should automatically prevent the whole “unwanted nato expansionism”
Or if you point out that calling Russians “orks” is racist.
the Russians also called the Ukrainians nazis, so…
Well there isn’t a single image of the Ukranian Army from the last decade that doesn’t have a symbol from a nazi-collaborating org in it, so the shoe definitely fits.
this entire thread is fucking bait bro what the hell is going on with the internet lately.
If there is one thing life as a geek in highschool taught me is that the ONLY effective way of stopping the violence when facing a bully is to hurt the bully back, even if you don’t hurt them as much as they do you.
The bully strategy is: violence, followed by concessions from the other side to stop the violence, followed by a period of non-violence, then one of threats of violence to get concessions, then violence again if there are no concessions or the bully finds them insuficient or simply wants more than they demande and then it all repeats.
This is exactly the pattern of behaviour from Russia towards Ukraine, clearly visible since their invasion of Crimea and subsequent events.
The strategy for dealing with non-bullies was the one tried after the Crimean invasion and the result was a typical bully pattern of behaviour from Russia in response - keep the gains, rebuild military strength, make more and continued demands from Ukraine under thinly veiled threats of violence, eventually initiate more violence with a further invading of Ukraine - which is why any Thinking Pacifist has by now concluded that unfortunatelly a response of “concessions” to Russian agression will result in a temporary pause of Russian agression and even more Russian aggression at a later date, whilst a strategy of responding to Russian aggression with the most hurtfull possible response in all senses (including militarilly) to make it be a negative for Russia to act agressivelly will dissuade Russia from acting aggressivelly for a long, long time, possibly forever.
Unfortunately the most simplistic strategy of Pacifism, which is to find a way to balance the interests of both sides, doesn’t work with actors who purposefully and repeatadly use violence and the threat of violence to extract gains, because their “concerns” are not genuine fixed issues that need addressing, they’re goalposts which they move every time they’re addressed because they’re really a mechanism for extraction of gains from the other side.
they’re really a mechanism for extraction of gains from the other side
I have no problem applying that framework towards Russia. They did this for internal political and for geopolitical reasons. My problem is that people are no longer capable of applying that framework towards the US / Nato. That they too, only did this “hey join nato bro!” to get Russia into this trap and bleed them dry using Ukraine.
There is a sort of black and white / good vs evil thinking now that is uterly naive, dehumanizes the enemy and only allows people to see them as fully evil and absolutely untrustworthy and incapable of rational acts. While your own side is absolutely innocent and blameless.
The amount of double think going on is astonishing, it’s not just ahistoric it’s blatantly false seeing how the US is supplying the weapons for a genocide in Palestine right now. But people seem to be able to completely compartmentalize the role of the US in Palestine vs the role of the US in Ukraine.
And then everyone who doesn’t agree with the dogma and proscribed narrative is your enemy. And like you pointed out, there apparently is only one way to deal with an enemy: Violence.
Diplomatic solutions to an invasion that violates treaties?
Fascism = far RIGHT ideology; communism = far LEFT ideology
Add Palestine in the US context to the list. Go into someone’s post history and without a fail there is the same shit of russia did nothing wrong, nort korea normal country.
It is just another genocide as a political fodder topic. Fucking disgusting.
Part of that is because Palestine is Russia’s proxy ally so the content farms push pro-Palestine
Russia is actually Palestine’s proxy. It was Hamas all along.
Like how the Russo-Ukrainian War is a proxy war between North and South Korea. We are all just puppets on the peninsula’s strings!
Hey its you!
No idea who you are but this side of lemmy doesn’t seem to like people defending Palestine
ah yes, without fail
I predict this will anger people but while I think fascists and auth-left communities share significant commonalities it’s at least a little misleading to call them fascists.
I’m of two minds on the matter. On one hand, one can very seriously argue that fascism and authoritarian ‘left’ groups are distinct in their proclaimed thought processes. Fascists very much hearken to the idea of an eternal conflict and a single national leader, while authoritarian leftists, in theory, are seeking an actual end goal of a stable society without a strongman.
On the other hand, in practice, there’s very little difference not only in policy, but also little difference in justification by actual pracititioners. Tankies go all-in for the same cultural chauvinist and hegemonic arguments that fascists do, they just call it ‘anti-imperialism’ instead of ‘national vitality’ or whatever the newspeak neonazi euphemism of the day is. Tankies proclaim that they aren’t in it for eternal conflict, and then break out the death-cult-of-heroism eternal ultra-martyrdom common to fascists and religious fanatics anyway. Tankies talk a big game about making a united front, but then immediately shut down all opposition, no matter how minor the disagreement, as ‘reactionary’ and call for them to be shipped off to re-education camps.
Insofar as there is a difference, it’s like paint of chartruese and bile-green. Side by side you might be able to differentiate them, but seeing either one spilled onto a perfectly good table, you probably aren’t going to care all that much about the distinction; they’re both pretty vile, and both in nearly the exact same way. In that vein, I prefer to emphasize that tankies and fascists are really not that differently, fundamentally and practically, than to emphasize the minutiae of theory that differentiates them.
Their approach to government is fairly similar, though fascism seems to be a bit more strictly totalitarian on average. They also focused their violence towards different groups which makes a difference, although the murder of dissidents is a prominent element of both.
However, they have quite different economic policies with fascists being generally pro-capitalism and tankies being anti-capitalism, at least to a degree.
But I mean I get it, it’s a meme. This kind of nuance doesn’t fit in 10 words or whatever.
Sure. And tankies champion russsia and China. Both ultra-capitalist states.
Zizek said it quite eloquently: “[China] adopts the basic idea of fascism, which is conservative modernisation: ‘we need capitalist dynamics, but we need to control it, and to control it we turn to our own national tradition’. […] This is the problem with Chinese communism: there is a direct link with the fascist tradition.”
Fascism = far RIGHT wing ideology; communism = far LEFT wing ideology
They’re basically OPPOSITE ideologies lol
I agree. I should also note that it is not useful to treat them as fascists. Right-wing and left-wing authoritarianism spring from different mindsets and combatting them requires different approaches.
That being said, there are intersections. The most notable are the nazbols, patsocs, and strasserites. It is absolutely appropriate to refer to such groups as red fascists.
“Biden is currently dropping bombs and Trump isn’t, therefore anyone desiring a Kamala victory is a fascist” --Linkerbaan unironically
Lol ever since I left lemmy.ml my life here is so clown free it’s unbelievable.
These “omg I’m so leftist” morons have been saying that for months. Odd how they spend so much time in activities that make Trump more likely to win and ignore all logic relating to that fact.
If you try to make them understand this logic they’ll just call you a Zionist genocide lover, there’s no getting through to them.
Right. And it makes no sense given that Trump would probably be even worse, and anyone with a clue about American politics realizes that a 3rd party isn’t going to win. The “we have to send a message to the democrats” isn’t a realistic strategy either. What they were saying 6 months ago was “we need to oppose Biden now” (apparently by denigrating him at every opportunity) “but then we’ll support him in the general election”. Ah yes, of course, you’re spreading tons of negative messages about the guy you want to win. Surely they were being honest, right?
Link or it didn’t happen.
These guys care about Palestinians about as much of as anti-choicers care about unborn babies.
So the uncommitted delegates at the DNC don’t care about Palestinians?
Sorry, I meant a link to where they said anything remotely like what you claimed they said.
It’s very funny how reliable it is that when people shit talk about other users without providing a link, they are lying literally 100% of the time.
As I said, a link to anything remotely like what you accused them of saying.
Their argument in that one was that holding democrats accountable is necessary to get them to change their positions, which will in turn help them win.
Try again. Or just admit you made it up whole cloth, as y’all do.
“Cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds” and “Liberals are perfectly happy voting for Democrats despite the genocide” doesn’t say “Harris voters are fascists” to you?
“Cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds” is a common expression. "Liberals are perfectly happy voting for Democrats despite the genocide” is just factually true. If that means the same thing as “Harris voters are fascists,” then, uh, if the shoe fits wear it I guess.
They’re using the definition of “liberal” as neoliberal or classic liberal, as in basically, capitalists. It gets confusing since in the US the term means center-left people with a focus on improving lives for racial and gender minorities and women. But also these “omg I’m a communist bro so leftist” people like do the “both sides are the same” crap and claim that democrats and republicans are equivalent because they’re both “liberals”, as in capitalists, as if we’ll have a choice about that anytime soon in the us. Also they completely ignore that the democrats are more likely to enact socialist policies while republicans bitterly oppose them.
Were the Germans complicit in fascism after voting for Hitler and standing by as he invaded Poland and started WW2?
- There are two choices in the United States 2024 election. No third party stands a ghost of a chance of winning. No, not even if the 30,000 people you can reach on Lemmy all vote for Timothy Greenparty.
- A Trump victory in 2024 would not only be just as bad if not worse for the citizens of Gaza than Harris would, but also pose an existential threat to a large number of vulnerable Americans (trans people, immigrants, women seeking abortions).
- Given the margins of victory in 2016 and 2020, Kamala might not win if leftists don’t vote for her.
- Snoozing fascism for four years is better than inviting it through the door now, and buys us time to build our defenses for when it comes back.
I’d like to focus my counterargument. Which of these statements do you disagree with?
It was a simple question. Answer first please, then I’ll address a counter argument. Please don’t try to deflect.
Whatever. Fine. Sure. Why does it matter?
Both mainstream candidates have promised to continue funneling arms to Israel. If people who voted for Hitler were complicit in fascism, and that analogy extends to the current election (and I’m not at all convinced it does), then anyone who votes for either major political party is complicit in fascism. Do you believe this? If so, then just say you object to point 1 and let’s discuss third-party voting.
I do believe that voting for either party is complicit in the genocide, myself included. I can recognize this and still vote for Harris to prevent damage to marginalized communities. But I don’t denigrate those that choose to not vote or vote third party because of the genocide. I get it.
Don’t forget those who support the genocidal ethnostate known as israel.
Had this discussion with a friend today, because the Confederation of German Trade Unions (the umbrella-organization of all German Unions), which he works for, and lots of other workers-rights and left-wing organization, along with the Alliance for Peace are having an anti-war-day on September 1st in my region with concerts and demonstrations and stuff.
And some groups (but not all) from that alliance are having a public demonstration for a ceasefire in Gaza (which is good) and in Ukraine (which is bad) where they will criticize the German military help for Ukraine and demand peace with Russia by making Ukraine cede territory to Putin.
The “all war are bad and everyone must immediately stop” crowd has brain rot. They don’t understand that some people have no choice but go to war, because they are being invaded.
It probably aligns with the kind of thinking that can assume the MIC produces only defense and protection: under certain parameters they’re right but under others it can be quite naive.
If all wars were stopped, how would they be invaded?
This Russia affinity of the left is so rediculous in 2024 and shows how lost these people really are. It shows they are at least off by 4 decades or so when this stance would have made the tiniest bit of sense.
They act as if they are idiologically aligned but Russia has turned into a worse than capitalism system. When? In the last 40 years!
who let these commenters on the internet? jesus christ i can barely read have the shit that’s being posted here.
At least be grammatically correct when fascist posting.
i can barely read have the shit that’s being posted
At least be grammatically correct
LMAO.
we do a little bit of trolling
It was probably written like that to be ironic, but don’t count me on that.
Add Palestinians to that.
I mean, yes, but generally you don’t find support of Palestinian genocide in leftist groups.
Depends on the country. In Germany too many “leftists” simp for Israel.
Noted for future reference. In the online anglosphere, I generally find self-proclaimed leftists almost always land on the side of Palestine over Israel.
They are called Anti-Deutsche (anti germans) or Anti-D for short and try very hard to mimic fundamental opposition while actually supporting Germany’s foreign policy.
Still there are even anti-D anarchists for example who want all states to fall but Israel last. Everything bad about Israel is bad about all states so why bother with Israel. It’s a rabbit hole, it’s wild. But a purely German phenomenon for reasons
the political party i run with has issue with the slogan “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” as its voicing one side of the conflict, being propagandized by right wing Zionists furthering the divide of the working class of Israel. anyway i doubt many leftist use the slogan with ill-intent.
I dunno… many on the center-left? Yes, definitely! But don’t give a false impression to @PugJesus@lemmy.world, hardcore leftists even here usually stick to the leftist Palestinian organizations.
Like the socialist Palestinian Popular Struggle Front, the communist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the marxist-leninist Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the social-democratic, secular Fatah or their umbrella organization, the broadly leftist, secular PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization)
Then there’s the entire, fairly big “Antideutsch” movement that labels itself as “far left” and “antifascist” but is heavily licking Israel’s boots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)
i think they meant palestinian far lefty bros who think jews are bad. but ok.
Which Fascists are oppressing them
Israel
israel is fascist? Seems weird for the US to be supporting them…
Why? The US is well on the road to Fascism.
under trump sure. But that’s only under trump.
The Democrats have been working furiously on becoming the 4th reich, purely out of triangulation
mm yes tringle
Fighting fascism with fascism to prevent fascism. It should be their new slogan
Oh… yeah… cause the US hasn’t supported any fascist regimes at all in the last 80 years or so… not at all /s
most of those have been millitant groups, not dissimilar to hamas, which people here seem to love supporting.
Yeah I’m sure everyone here loves hamas just because they criticize the apartheid state
judging by how many people seem to think that the democrats here are a literal fascists, i wouldn’t be surprised if those people also think russia did nothing wrong, and that hamas is actually just a charity organization, or whatever wrong opinions people hold on things these days.
the alternative being that this is just doomerism which i don’t believe.
Well usa is known as the fascists of this century so…
i would say of the late 20th century, the 21st century is probably china, or perhaps russia. Considering they had an “ethnic cleansing” of their government. They seem like a pretty good bet.
China?? They haven’t invaded a country since 60 years ago. usa have invaded the whole Middle East during this century and currently fighting a proxy war in Europe
china doesnt need to invade another country to be all authoritarian over them. For one they have their own population to do that with. And secondly, they seem to be focusing much more on getting other countries to hold chinese debt, presumably in an effort to make them default such that they can cut really sleazy deals with them. Also china allies with north korea and russia, they have no need to directly invade a nation.
Also the proxy war in europe isn’t a bad thing, that’s a good thing, it’s effectively a proxy war between europe, the US, and russia. Who broke their own treaty with ukraine. And is also doing warcrimes all over ukraine, unlike ukraine.
Hey look guys it’s the one true leftist
Damn, I’m the only one who believes genocide is bad? That’s a crying fucking shame. As if the world didn’t give me enough reasons to be depressed.
Honestly the word gets thrown around so much that it’s lost its power, especially when it’s not backed up by anything other than ‘i know they’re doing genocide because I already dislike the people I’m accusing!’
It’s not something people seem serious about, you’d think if actual genocide was happening in China people would want to share the evidence and it’d be a big thing and stuff but it’s apparently been over a decade of industrial scale murder and no one has anything substantial or tangible to prove it, just ‘trust me bro, my sworn ideological enemies are super bad in secret!’
Don’t you think? I mean off the top of your head name the three bits of evidence that actually convinced you china is committing genocide- you can even cheat and Google
Okay, off the top of my head, without googling:
- Testimonies from people who escaped
- Satellite evidence of large labor camps
- Satellite evidence of villages becoming depopulated
- Testimonies from former workers in the camps
- Video of chained-up people being marched into camps
- That guy who said he bought “halal organs” from China
- That time at the UN when they accused China of attacking Uyghurs, and the CCP guy got all pissy and defensive, but didn’t deny it
people would want to share the evidence
Almost as if there’s an enormous state surveillance apparatus that will black-bag you if you talk? Let’s not pretend China has freedom of speech here.
And I’m sure you could pick apart the claims and the sources, and find biases, and say we should give the CCP the benefit of the doubt, but there’s really no reason to do so–what evidence is there that the CCP have changed their ways for the better?
It’s not something people seem serious about, you’d think if actual genocide was happening in China people would want to share the evidence and it’d be a big thing and stuff but it’s apparently been over a decade of industrial scale murder and no one has anything substantial or tangible to prove it, just ‘trust me bro, my sworn ideological enemies are super bad in secret!’
“There’s no evidence!” cry the people who continuously reject the evidence presented.
Don’t you think? I mean off the top of your head name the three bits of evidence that actually convinced you china is committing genocide- you can even cheat and Google
The internment camps, the forcible sterilization, the suppression of Uyghur culture.
Didn’t even need to use google. Fuck’s sake.
Your three bits of evidence are all heresy based on unreliable reports, but sure let’s just believe anything that fits our worldview without question.
Even Mahmoud Abbas said china was treating Muslims fairly, as did Imran Khan as leader of Pakistan, Kazakhstan likewise agrees with China’s actions as do many other Islamic neighbour’s… People who get their news from the source because they’re connected to the victims involved through shared culture describe it as a fairly standardly upsetting conflict between terrorists and state actors but the further away you get and the closer to the anglosphere the more intense people’s stories become…
I only really realized how much the media pushes stories with no basis because I wanted to be able to demonstrate the stark facts when talking about it, it’s been the main criticism of Americans biggest enemy for decades but the CIA, media, and all the other apparatus of the machine haven’t been able to find anything beyond a few pictures of routine prisoner transport and baseless accusations from people already ideologically opposed to the state - I’m not even joking when I say Alex Jones has better evidence that FEMA and the EPA are building concentration camps and using chemical warfare against patriots, which we all understand to be manipulative lies.
For decades we’ve been hearing about this industrial genocide of Uyghur but their population continues to grow, average life expectancy has increased due to access ro modern medicine, everyone (including women, much to the upset of religious fundamentalists) now have access to education and social support… yes the men who wanted to keep women as property are angry but the average Uyghur lives a better life now than they did twenty years ago so if that’s the definition of genocide it’s kinda meaningless.
For decades we’ve been hearing about this industrial genocide of Uyghur but their population continues to grow,
Literally the same argument Israeli simps use to claim there’s no Palestinian genocide.
You can reject the evidence from multiple sources over the course of almost a decade now over and over again because you want to simp for fascists, but it doesn’t change facts.
The reality is you’re rejecting all the evidence against this because it would make your worldview much more difficult, you believe you know the truth and so reject any other argument out of hand. This is very common, Alex Jones fans believe they have evidence of a NWO conspiracy, your belief is more reasonable because it’s pushed by western media snd political establishments but it’s pretty much the same game.
Do you reject the evidence from multiple sources that lizard people rule the world? Of course you reject it because claims of evidence no matter how repeatedly they’re made add up tnothing if they’re all just feeding off their own fantasy.
Is china heavy handed? Yes. Do I think s lot of their actions in Xinjiang are immoral? Yes. Is there evidence of a genocide, no.
How far have you actually looked into the evidence beyond articles in outlets you wouldn’t trust taking about issues you actually have detailed knowledge of? The guardian has misrepresented every antiestablishment group they report on but you think they’ll be fair to the CCCP? And they’re one of fhe most sympathetic, in what world would the US state department say ‘actually our main enemy isn’t as bad as people say, really they’re fairly reasonable especially xomaoired to our own interactions with Islamic terrorists…’
But it’s also why they don’t really talk about it, they don’t want to get caught in lies - remember the US flexing on Russia with their super accurate intel? They’d love to do that to china and if there was good evidence to have they’d have it. This is why all the big claims are based on hearsay from unreliable sources or wild leaps of imagination based on insignificant pictures.
You’re sure there’s huge amounts of evidence but you can’t think of a single bit that has any substance - exactly like the conspiracy loons when they say ‘Google FEMA Cano death squads’ instead of pointing to their favorite smoking gun because they know you’ll just get lost in a sea of people promising theirs strong evidence but never actually getting round to showing it.
As for people using the same demographic argument for Isreal, Isreal isn’t building schools and providing healthcare the difference is pretty obvious when you actually compare them - but that doesn’t occur to you because you don’t actually know any details about the situation in China, which is weird considering how often you’ve read articles and memes taking about it… almost like they lack vital information because they only want to show one side…
Hey look guys! It’s opposing genocide! So radical
My deal with China is this, The CCP is posing as a communist regime to gain more control over its citizens, it is not communism because there is no democracy.
They have elections in China, but yeah, as an outsider it is clear to see that the establishment significantly controls who is allowed to run. I just wish people realized that entrenched solid red and solid blue states in the US aren’t much better.
So it just feel hypocritical when we criticize China for having a shitty democracy and yet we tolerate our deeply undemocratic two party plutocracy. If we truly valued democracy then we would demand a modern proportional multiparty system like they have in Europe
How many parties are there in china?
Just looked at that wikipedia article. Those parties need the CCP’s permission to even exist. Sounds more like a democracy theater than actual democracy.
If the Republican party were dissolved and only the Democratic party remained, would that make the US more democratic or less democratic?
There are two things that need to happen for your hypothetical scenario:
- The republican party gets dissolved.
- Only the democrat party remains.
If “1.” happens, then another party will appear and they’d be back to having 2 parties. Because of the way the US electoral system works, there is an equilibrium at 2 parties, due to game theory. No more, no loss. Depending if the new party is more or less democratic, the US would be more or less democratic.
For “2.” to happen, there must be some change to the US electoral system, which would make it less democratic. It would probably be a move by the democrats to seize all the power to themselves and ensure they don’t have to share it with any other party. That would result in a less democratic US.
So the existence a major party that is constantly trying to subvert popular will through things like gerrymandering, voter suppression, regulatory capture, appointing corrupt judges, and making sure that the rich and powerful are able to do anything they want and are never held accountable is what separates the democracy of the US from those evil, authoritarian, one-party states, do I have that right?
How is having a party that tries to undermine democracy to that degree an indication of a healthy democracy?
Because the thing about democracies is that the people have the power. The people can vote and choose their leaders. Sometimes those leaders try to remove power from the people, and there is people dumb enough to still vote for them.
Those people, even if dumb, still are represented, and that’s what democracy is about. Because if you remove all the parties except one, that one party has no one to hold them accountable.
Even if you really like that one party, they have no reason to stay the same with the same ideals, eventually someone who want power above the will of the people will get a lot of power in that one-party system. And now you have an authoritarian state with no opposition.
There must always be opposition to make sure that the party in power has something to lose if they don’t work for their voters’ interest.
Sometimes those leaders try to remove power from the people, and there is people dumb enough to still vote for them.
How much of it is people being dumb vs corporations financing propaganda and misinformation to get people to vote against their interests? Without campaign finance regulation, the rich are always going to be strongly overrepresented politically, and once they’re in power, guess who gets to decide campaign finance laws?
So I guess just I don’t understand why you think letting these types run amok and decieve people and buy out elections as part of a fascist agenda is conductive to the expression of popular will in government, as opposed to just not letting that happen.
Yeah I agree. So many people just blindly agree with whatever the US foreign policy propaganda apparatus tells them without employing any critical thinking whatsoever, so much so that I think it might actually be impossible to change someone’s mind on their long-held propagandized beliefs about foreign countries, they’ve gotta somehow come around to opening their mind themselves.
“US foreign policy propaganda is when countries I like commit genocide” - Average red-painted fascist
We are living in a world with an ongoing genocide, and it’s impossible to be blind to the evidence of it. So many tiktoks of devastation in Gaza, so many tweets of fascist Israelis celebrating the violence - and there is nothing comparable coming out of Xinjiang. There is no wave of refugees, no doctors or journalists turning up dead, nothing but a handful of people who made testimony five years ago and have done nothing since.
Even the US state dept gave up the ghost on this narrative after China ended the reeducation programs (because they achieved their goal of peacefully eliminating religious extremism in the targeted communities). The only people grasping to the Uyghur genocide narrative are terminally online debatebros who can’t accept that they were wrong.
Even the US state dept gave up the ghost on this narrative after China ended the reeducation programs (because they achieved their goal of peacefully eliminating religious extremism in the targeted communities). The only people grasping to the Uyghur genocide narrative are terminally online debatebros who can’t accept that they were wrong.
Best-informed tankie. I don’t know why I expect you to get the opinions of governments correct when you can’t even recognize a genocide in front of your face because it’s painted the extremely-effective camo pattern of ‘red fascism’.
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That link doesn’t work for me, I was referring to this.
Fucking Christ, you didn’t even read your own link, did you?
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide
The cautious conclusions of State Department lawyers do not constitute a judgment that genocide did not occur in Xinjiang but reflects the difficulties of proving genocide, which involves the destruction “in whole or in part” of a group of people based on their national, religious, racial, or ethnic identity, in a court of law. It also points to a disconnect between public perception of the crime of genocide and the legal definition in the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which has long been interpreted by State Department lawyers to require intent to bring about the physical and biological destruction of a group.
“Genocide is difficult to prove in court,” said Richard Dicker, an expert on international justice at Human Rights Watch. Even the most horrific of crimes—burning of villages, systematic rape, or the execution of large numbers of civilians—can not be considered genocide unless the perpetrators carry out their crimes “with a very specific intent—the intent, of course, being to destroy in whole or in part a population based on their religious, ethnic, or national background,” he said.
me: even the state dept doesn’t consider it a genocide
state dept: this isn’t a genocide (we still think it’s really bad though)
you: dId YoU eVeN rEaD yOuR oWn LiNk?
I’m sorry that I chose to be concise rather than fully elucidate every single nuance of the state dept’s position. Regardless, my initial point still stands, that the evidence of the supposed crimes in Xinjiang is incredibly lacking compared to the allegations made against the Chinese government.
state dept: this isn’t a genocide (we still think it’s really bad though)
That’s literally not what was said, but stunning reading comprehension, as usual.
We have satellites that can read a license plate in Iowa, but can’t get photos of mass graves … weird.
