• mctoasterson@reddthat.com
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    3 months ago

    Since the story came out people fixated on “lol he used a shitty gaming controller” but really that is one of the least sketchy design choices in the entire rig. Why reinvent the wheel and make a custom set of controls that are realistically another huge expense and potential failure point, when off the shelf solutions exist for that component?

    The corners that were cut are the ones involving the viewport/nose adhesion to the ships frame, and the structural integrity of the carbon fiber hull itself. They had test data suggesting it was a bad idea to engage in repeated dives with their design, and an even worse idea to operate at the depths they chose. They decided to ignore that.

    • Rob T Firefly@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      That doesn’t explain why they used the wireless version of that Logitech instead of wired to control the thing they were literally inside.

      • Greg Clarke@lemmy.ca
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        3 months ago

        To be fair, they’re under water and sharks have been known to chew through electrical cables

        • Tricky@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          I suspect the wired cabling would be to control components inside the sub, not outside. And I say that only because it’s unlikely that wireless signals would penetrate the sub walls.

          • gedhrel@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            Have you seen pictures of the sub? What makes you think the wiring was all hidden?

            • kurcatovium@lemm.ee
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              3 months ago

              It looked worse than cheapest capsule hotel ever built…

              I’m mildly claustrophobic and I would have troubles going in that tube even on mainland.

    • Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
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      3 months ago

      From what I can tell the lawsuit (which is against Ocean Gate, not Logitech) is really just calling out the controller as another example of willfully negligent behaviour.

      You’re certainly correct that the actual cause of the failure was the carbon fibre hull. Just a terrible idea on so many levels. Carbon fibre, by its nature, is good under tension, not compression. It was never going to function well as a pressure vessel underwater.

      There were a litany of terrible decisions made by Ocean Gate, such as not tethering the sub, because it was cheaper to launch it from a towed raft, but none of those bad decisions ultimately mattered once that pressure vessel failed. Those people were dead so fast that, to quote Scott Manley, “You go from being biology to being physics.”

      • buttfarts@lemy.lol
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        3 months ago

        You can always bring a second controller for redundancy. I would bet money the game controller had zero impact on the failure and I hate all the shade being thrown on this innocent controller.

        • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          That game controller has terrible range, zero compatibility with any other device, and randomly adds inputs when the controller is more than 2 feet away from the receiver. It is reasonable to consider if uncontrolled movement contributed to the implosion, or a loss of control at a critical moment preventing return to the surface.

        • Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
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          3 months ago

          In the context of the lawsuit it’s definitely a valid thing to bring up, mostly because it helps you tell the story to the jury. But yeah, in practice it probably didn’t represent much of a hazard on its own (though it almost certainly wasn’t fire rated)

    • chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 months ago

      Having tried to use those, my main issue was the 710 is an unreliable 2.4ghz wireless, when bluetooth controllers all worked much better for me. I couldn’t get the 710 to have reliable button presses from more than like 4 feet from my pc, so I ended up just using the 310 wired. Maybe there isn’t enough interference on the sub for that to be an issue.

      • piecat@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        There’s going to be no external interference when you’re under water. Sea water makes an excellent em shield

        • deranger@sh.itjust.works
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          3 months ago

          True, but that’s hardly an endorsement for their safety. Wireless should never be used for critical life support equipment. It is mind bogglingly stupid they did this.

    • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Wasnt the carbon fiber body rated for like, 1/3rd the depth that they dove to?

      It was very NASA O-Ring vibes. “We did it once, so we can do it every time” at least until they cant anymore, and that cant is usually accompanied by regret and poor innocent people being salsafied.

    • deranger@sh.itjust.works
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      3 months ago

      Using commercial off the shelf technology without proper testing and certification is absolutely cutting corners. See: Kaprun disaster.

      What kind of fire rating did those COTS parts throughout the interior of the vessel have? What kind of redundancy existed? Would you use a Logitech controller for a spacecraft? The requirements of deep sea submersibles and spacecraft are quite similar. Would any of the submersible certification agencies approved this? I think not.

      I see the Logitech controller, the carbon fiber hull, and so many other decisions he made as symptoms of the same corner cutting, “move fast and break things” mentality he had.

      • mox@lemmy.sdf.org
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        3 months ago

        Using commercial off the shelf technology without proper testing and certification is absolutely cutting corners. See: Kaprun disaster.

        I just read the wikipedia article; thanks for mentioning it.

        I’m not sure it’s a good example of your point, though. Notably:

        the cause was the failure, overheating and ignition of a fan heater in the conductor’s compartments which was not designed for use in a moving vehicle.

        The onboard electric power, hydraulic braking systems, and fan heaters intended for domestic use increased the likelihood of fire.

        The fan heater is the only off-the-shelf technology listed here, and there’s no suggestion that it was part of the train’s design. It seems likely that a train conductor brought it on board to keep the compartment warm through the workday. Still a bad idea in a train, especially on a 30° slope, but not an example of the designers cutting corners.

        Edit:

        Thanks to others for linking photos and a report (in German) that show how the heater was installed. It was clearly not a case of a conductor just setting the heater on the floor, but the installation still looks very much out of place. Perhaps corner-cutting was involved, but this doesn’t look like something done by the train designers. Even an expensive industrial heater seems like it would be an extraordinarily bad idea in that location, right up against high-pressure hydraulic oil lines. Does someone have the details behind it? It looks more likely a (very foolish) modification made by someone else, like maybe the train operators.

        For anyone else following this, those hydraulic oil lines that the heater was nearly touching were apparently pressurized at 190 bar, which I think is about 2700 pounds per square inch.

        • deranger@sh.itjust.works
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          3 months ago

          It’s an example of uncertified consumer grade equipment used in a commercial environment to disastrous results, outside of its original designed purpose. It’s one of the most well known examples of why you don’t use consumer grade hardware in a commercial/industrial setting.

          It was not brought on board by the conductor or someone else, it was permanently installed in the train in place of commercial grade heaters they couldn’t source. It was installed in the wall during assembly.

          I’d argue it is an example of cutting corners, they didn’t want to find / pay more for commercial grade heaters. It was not compliant with the original design nor fire safety standards.

          • Scrollone@feddit.it
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            3 months ago

            Wow. That’s creepy in a fascinating way. Cutting corners costs lives, and this is a perfect example.

          • mox@lemmy.sdf.org
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            3 months ago

            it was build into the train by the train manufacturer.

            What makes you think the train manufacturer did it? Is that on record someplace? Because the installation and materials don’t look at all like the surrounding work. Looks more like a handyman hack job. Now that I’ve seen the photos, I’m curious about what actually happened there.

            • AWildMimicAppears@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              3 months ago

              It was not the train manufacturer, but a body shop (Swoboda Karosserie- und Stahlbau GesmbH, now Carvatech), which was recruited by the Gletscherbahn Kaprun (GBK) for renovations. It might have not had so large repercussions if anyone of the actors during those renovations had done his job correctly tho:

              • the model chosen was for household use and chosen because the recommended fan heater was unavailable
              • other departments of Swoboda (and because of that, everyone else) were not informed about this change, even leading to sending out the documentation of the recommended fan heater to GBK
              • the fan heater was mounted in a way that allowed liquids to leak inside of it
              • it was mounted directly in front of the hydraulics, which contained flammable liquids
              • those hydraulics were redone during the renovations by Mannesmann-Rexroth AG (now Bosch Rexroth AG), and were done using plastic pipes and were not appropriately encased.
              • They started melting because of the malfunctioning heater, spraying flammable oil at 190 bar into the fire
              • the dropping oil pressure caused the train to automatically break
              • but the hydraulics were also needed to open the goddamn doors.

              On top of all that, because the cable cars were made of aluminium, they were deemed inflammable. This did not take into account that any installed equipment or passengers and their luggage might NOT be fireproof.

              This lead to: no fire exits, no emergency signage, no training for employees how to react in case of fire. (which might have saved a lot of people: the 12 survivors were the people who went downwards, passing the fire, because they listened to a fireman onboard the cable car.)

              it was a single malfunctioning heater, but the Kaprun disaster had many fathers.

              I found a nice paper regarding the different actors written by a student of the University of Virginia here, well sourced.

            • llii@discuss.tchncs.de
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              3 months ago

              I need to cite the German Wikipedia article, which I’ve read. It’s a good read and very long.

              Abschließend wurde festgehalten: „Als Ergebnis der Ermittlungen der Staatsanwaltschaft Heilbronn lässt sich feststellen, dass sich das Unglück am 11. November 2000 hätte vermeiden lassen können, wenn seitens der Fa. Swoboda fahrzeuggeeignete Heizlüfter eingebaut worden wären, die es auf dem Markt gab.“

      • pixely@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Exactly this. When you procure custom hardware, you’re paying (a lot) for the vendor to ensure that each unit meets the specifications you provide. If you validate off the shelf hardware like this, there is no guarantee that another batch of the same sku will also meet your requirements. Imagine training on these controllers then a certain batch of them has wildly different sensitivity.

      • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        This particular model of controller is notoriously terrible, unreliable, and prone to contact failure. Anyone reading the amazon reviews would know it wasn’t even a good choice as a player2 little brother controller.

    • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Dude, the F710 is legitimately a terrible controller with a tiny range and a manufacture flawed nano receiver. I mean it’s not the steepest corner they cut but you can get a rock solid drone remote with ridiculous range for barely twice the price of an f710.

      It was a stupid choice that they actively ignored the results. Like i said, ANYONE who uses this controller for more than an hour will directly experience how terrible it is.

    • auzy@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Weren’t they using it wirelessly too?

      At the very least, maybe use a Xbox elite controller

      • buttfarts@lemy.lol
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        3 months ago

        The game controller is not managing life critical functions, that’s called a computer. The game controller plugs into the computer. The great thing about that is that you can bring a second (or even a third) game controller for redundancy.

        It’s just that the engineering choices that caused the failure are difficult to understand or communicate in sentence so the game controller is something any idiot can harp on about and sound smart.

        • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          he game controller is not managing life critical functions

          oh, it doesn’t control ascent and descent, angle of attack, etc? it’s not used to turn or operate the craft, that’s all ‘done by computer’?

          pfft.

          bluetooth and other wireless interface protocols aren’t meant for life critical applications. give me a hardwired input - even a game controller - any day when it comes to life or death shit.

  • iAvicenna@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    “Rush, who saw himself as an innovator like “Steve Jobs or Elon Musk,” the complaint says, once told Pogue, “At some point, safety just is pure waste.” Rush thought he had found a lighter way to build subs.”

    This really summarizes the mindset of most second+ generation rich people. Because this guy lived with a lot of inherited money and power all his life, he assumed that everything that comes out of his brain must be the ultimate truth. So much so that without even a single reservation he happily took his son with him to that journey knowing full well that the submarine was probably violating several critical safety requirements that he deemed unnecessary. We are basically being ruled by such people folks.

  • Spacehooks@reddthat.com
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    3 months ago

    I wouldn’t use a wireless controller playing subnautica. This is on the company for using sub par tech. Next time use first party wired!

  • skozzii@lemmy.ca
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    3 months ago

    Is it because everything else on the sub was ordered from aliexpress and pieced together? This was the only part from a legitimate manufacturer?

  • mox@lemmy.sdf.org
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    3 months ago

    The complaint does not allege that the Logitech wireless controller, the carbon fiber construction, Titan’s innovative porthole, or the use of disparate materials with differing expansion/compression coefficients—four main areas of criticism—were individually responsible for the sub’s implosion. But it does suggest that these systems could have together contributed to a “daisy chain of failures of multiple improperly designed or constructed parts or systems.”

    • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      Titan was an implosion, so the pressure hull failed at some point, we just don’t know what. While the Logitech controller is indicative of the decision making process, it’s one component we can comprehensively rule out as causing the failure.

      • Toribor@corndog.social
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        3 months ago

        Shouldn’t have put the ‘implode’ action on the shoulder button. It was only a matter of time before he triggered it on accident.

      • AWildMimicAppears@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        3 months ago

        we cant rule that out yet! maybe someone played CoD on the way down, but the high latency made them ragequit, causing a high-quality, robust controller to be accelerated fiercly, piercing the crappy hull.

  • 𝓔𝓶𝓶𝓲𝓮@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    This controller kept me in rocket league gold for months. I put it on eBay and some shmuck said they need it in a submarine but are on a budget so max can do is three fiddy. I just wanted to get rid of the thing

  • BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    It’s true, I bought one thinking it was cheaper and easier than a PS5 controller, and my couch imploded.

  • Uriel238 [all pronouns]
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    3 months ago

    Behind the Bastards did a pretty great two-parter on Stockton Rush, and how a) he completely shit the bed while ignoring all the super-deep-exploration experts, and b) how nature was totally telegraphing to Rush and OceanGate that this submersible is totally not doing it and will end in a spectacular tragedy, only no one else will be down there to watch but the fishes.

    The controller wasn’t a particularly weak link, though for safety’s sake I’d want there to be a redundant spare, and it set up for plug and play. But higher on my priority list would be things like integrity monitors and an emergency way to open the sub from the inside (the hatch was bolted from the outside, and there were no emergency exit measures.

    • hexdream@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      To be fair, they all exited the vehicle pretty quickly at the time without it needing to be unbolted from the outside. Experts… pfft.

    • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      Anyone who uses the F710 more than an hour will have it randomly disconnect like twice. No idea who okayed that part but it wasn’t even the affordable option at the time as it was ALREADY years out of production when they built the sub.

    • mrvictory1@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      I have that exact controller. It sometimes randomly disconnects forma few seconds. It is a weak link.

  • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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    3 months ago

    Oh yeah, the controller is clearly the one a fault here…

    I mean, they clearly made this for an submersible, one made of carbon fibre specifically.

    • laurelraven
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      Just taking a guess here but the controller was probably brought up as evidence for how much they were cutting corners and disregarding safety and good sense, not as the cause of the failure

    • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      That controller is known for just forgetting it’s tethered to anything or suddenly veering off for no reason. I know because I have had one for years.

  • Clbull@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    At this point filing a multi-million dollar lawsuit against OceanGate will be like trying to extract blood from a stone.

    What tangible assets do OceanGate really have left to pay Nargeolet’s estate? Their CEO (the maverick aerospace engineer who thought he was ‘revolutionizing’ the submarine industry by cutting corners) is dead, their only active submersible imploded, their reputation has been tainted by the fact that they’ve been selling billionaires what is effectively a carbon fiber coffin waiting to implode, and any angel investors have probably pulled out harder than a porn star on the verge of climax.

    Even then, they may not even have a case. IANAL but in an age where every single tech and gaming company has been pushing through class action waivers and forced arbitration clauses in their Terms of Service, I get the feeling that any attempts at suing OceanGate will be thrown out of court by the waivers each passenger had to sign.

    There is a sense of irony in people celebrating this disaster on social media because it means “five less billionaires in the world.” No, this is potentially a massive L for us commoners, because it shows just how much corporate greed can destroy lives. If the rich can be screwed this badly by an unregulated corporation, imagine what corporate giants can do to people who can’t afford lawyers.

    • lefaucet@slrpnk.net
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      3 months ago

      Srsly, it’s clear these guys didnt play video games with controllers growing up. Could you imagine getting left drift down there!?

      They should have had an entirely redundant system on there; the controller being the first item on the list and from there to the motors.

  • riodoro1@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    willfully get in a sub built by an idiot known to have said very weird things about safety

    die

    your „estate” sues the sub company for $50 million

        • kurcatovium@lemm.ee
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          Honestly. I can’t afford deep sea submarine dive. I can afford a train ticket though. Do I question every train company, every train driver and coductor whether their train is real, fully functional train? No, I simply assume it is, because how else would it be even possible for them to operate it in this day and age?

          And I believe these rich people did the exact same thing, jist with a different machine…

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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            3 months ago

            Sure, but you’re talking about routine things, not a maiden voyage of some brand new service. Deep sea voyages just aren’t a thing available for the average person, so I’d hold off and not be the first to try it out until it’s proven. I guess there’s some FOMO there, but there are always kinks to work out with any new service.

            • kurcatovium@lemm.ee
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              Yeah, I wouldn’t get in such a death trap ever, but who am I? Imagining I have infinite money and the world is a sandbox for me, would this feel like “just another thing to keep me interested” like space jumps or formula rental or similar adrenaline gigs? Most likely yes. Everyone in my multi-billionaire social bubble would probably do similar things, so… Why not deep dive? I have paid lot of money, what could go wrong.