The government “collapsing itself” is not Marxist in any way, why would the government shrink itself? Additionally, what do you mean by “actively maintaining a class?” Have you read Marx? That might clear up some of your confusion.
Marx envisioned a historical process through which these conditions would be achieved:
1. Capitalism: Characterized by class struggle between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat.
2. Proletarian Revolution: The working class rises up to overthrow the capitalist system.
3. Socialism: A transitional stage where the proletariat controls the state and begins to dismantle the structures of capitalism. This involves reorganization of economic and social relations to eliminate class distinctions.
4. Communism: The final stage where the state has withered away, and society is fully classless and stateless.
The Government’s Role
The idea that a government could be “stateless in some sort” while not working towards making itself obsolete is contradictory in Marxist terms. For Marx:
• Any form of government or state that continues to exist as an authority structure inherently maintains some level of class distinction or power imbalance.
• A true movement towards communism would involve the state actively diminishing its role as class distinctions are resolved and social ownership is fully realized.
In summary, Marx’s definitions of statelessness and classlessness are intertwined with the dissolution of traditional state structures and the eradication of social classes, ultimately resulting in a society where cooperative, communal living replaces hierarchical and coercive systems of governance.
The bit on government. The State, for Marx, is the elements of Government that actively uphold Class Society, ie Private Property Rights. The role of government in AES countries should be to actively diminish class distinctions and remove the elements of the previous Class Society.
The government sort of becomes everything, ie the US post office is a government job. Trying to shrink government when the government is how everything gets made is silly.
Fair, no I see where we disconnected, what I wanted to say with no government is, I think, equivalent to what you refer as government becomes everything
To the classless part: are social credits really something that upholds class society? Is exploitation of minorities something that upholds class society?
And no, I have not read it yet, and I did not told you prior, since I feared you would stop talking normal knowing that
Fair, no I see where we disconnected, what I wanted to say with no government is, I think, equivalent to what you refer as government becomes everything
Yep, Marx wrote in the 1800s using 1800s political terminology, which results in confusion today.
To the classless part: are social credits really something that upholds class society? Is exploitation of minorities something that upholds class society?
What do you mean by “Social Credits,” and what do you mean by “exploitation of minorities?” I’d like an example, it seems like you’re referring to something specific here. Either way, exploitation of minorities is an evil, anti-socialist stance, but it’s important to understand that no state is stagnant, and is always progressing in some direction. If it is increasingly becoming more progressive as compared to its peers and its past self, this is a good thing. Cuba, for example, now has a more progressive Family Code than the US for LGBTQ individuals.
And no, I have not read it yet, and I did not told you prior, since I feared you would stop talking normal knowing that
I’d be lying if I told you I was surprised, haha. As long as people are reasonable and willing to learn, I try to be as level-headed as possible. There’s no point otherwise.
Well, the examples were while thinking about china
Hmm, after some research, cuba seems not very nice anymore
Seems again like a country where your only options are to fly, to comply or to risk your live demonstrating, if you disagree with a decision of the government. It seems to be a single party system, like china.
Stateless refers to an elimination of the elements of government that uphold class society, like privateproperty rights.
Classless refers to relations to the Means of Production, ie Bourgeoisie and Proletarian. Government is an extension of the class in power, if government is fully proletarianized and there are no remnants of Capitalism, it is Classless.
"But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.
But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.
In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life’s prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"
The government “collapsing itself” is not Marxist in any way, why would the government shrink itself? Additionally, what do you mean by “actively maintaining a class?” Have you read Marx? That might clear up some of your confusion.
Where do you disagree with that text?
The Path to Statelessness and Classlessness
Marx envisioned a historical process through which these conditions would be achieved:
The Government’s Role
The idea that a government could be “stateless in some sort” while not working towards making itself obsolete is contradictory in Marxist terms. For Marx:
In summary, Marx’s definitions of statelessness and classlessness are intertwined with the dissolution of traditional state structures and the eradication of social classes, ultimately resulting in a society where cooperative, communal living replaces hierarchical and coercive systems of governance.
The bit on government. The State, for Marx, is the elements of Government that actively uphold Class Society, ie Private Property Rights. The role of government in AES countries should be to actively diminish class distinctions and remove the elements of the previous Class Society.
The government sort of becomes everything, ie the US post office is a government job. Trying to shrink government when the government is how everything gets made is silly.
Have you read Marx?
Fair, no I see where we disconnected, what I wanted to say with no government is, I think, equivalent to what you refer as government becomes everything
To the classless part: are social credits really something that upholds class society? Is exploitation of minorities something that upholds class society?
And no, I have not read it yet, and I did not told you prior, since I feared you would stop talking normal knowing that
Yep, Marx wrote in the 1800s using 1800s political terminology, which results in confusion today.
What do you mean by “Social Credits,” and what do you mean by “exploitation of minorities?” I’d like an example, it seems like you’re referring to something specific here. Either way, exploitation of minorities is an evil, anti-socialist stance, but it’s important to understand that no state is stagnant, and is always progressing in some direction. If it is increasingly becoming more progressive as compared to its peers and its past self, this is a good thing. Cuba, for example, now has a more progressive Family Code than the US for LGBTQ individuals.
I’d be lying if I told you I was surprised, haha. As long as people are reasonable and willing to learn, I try to be as level-headed as possible. There’s no point otherwise.
I guess I am just too china focused 😅
Cuba seems nice, in that case, have to check that out in more detail
But to have better lgptq rights than US does not seem that hard to be honest 🫣
In what way?
Generally yes, in spite of brutal blockades, they have made the best of what they have.
Certainly a low bar, but unfortunately the bar is extremely low to begin with, worldwide, and everyone has a long way to go on that front.
Well, the examples were while thinking about china
Hmm, after some research, cuba seems not very nice anymore
Seems again like a country where your only options are to fly, to comply or to risk your live demonstrating, if you disagree with a decision of the government. It seems to be a single party system, like china.
So what are the meaning of stateless and classless then?
Stateless refers to an elimination of the elements of government that uphold class society, like privateproperty rights.
Classless refers to relations to the Means of Production, ie Bourgeoisie and Proletarian. Government is an extension of the class in power, if government is fully proletarianized and there are no remnants of Capitalism, it is Classless.
"But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.
But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.
In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life’s prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"