- cross-posted to:
- ghazi
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- feminism@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- ghazi
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- feminism@beehaw.org
For some women in China, “Barbie” is more than just a movie — it’s also a litmus test for their partner’s views on feminism and patriarchy.
The movie has prompted intense social media discussion online, media outlets Sixth Tone and the China Project reported this week, prompting women to discuss their own dating experiences.
One user on the Chinese social media platform Xiaohongshu — a photo-sharing site similar to Instagram that’s mostly used by Gen Z women — even shared a guide on Monday for how women can test their boyfriends based on their reaction to the film.
According to the guide, if a man shows hatred for “Barbie” and slams female directors after they leave the theatre, then this man is “stingy” and a “toxic chauvinist,” according to Insider’s translation of the post. Conversely, if a man understands even half of the movie’s themes, “then he is likely a normal guy with normal values and stable emotions,” the user wrote.
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Women in the US are doing that too.
I guess it works, to a point. If your man throws a Shapiro-esque fit over this movie he probably isn’t great to be around the rest of the time.
His critique of it is basically that it’s too “woke” but he really has nothing to say about the essential elements of any movie (plot, tone, character development, etc). He’s either unable or unwilling to separate politics from his review. It’s like he doesn’t know movies can be well made even if you disagree with their themes.
Shapiro-esque is such an apt description.
Both my wife and i wanted to go equally. I wanted to thirst on Ken and I did…but on the serious note, its a good movie for both genders to see for seperate but equal reasons. Barbie gotta stand up and step out, be herself. and Ken has to learn what it means to be Ken without Barbie. This movie would of helped me not be such an incel in my formative years.
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The test isn’t if someone dislikes the movie, it’s why if they disliked the movie.
It’s fine if someone thinks it was boring, poorly written, etc. It’s a red flag if they go off on some misogynistic rant.
I bet that challenging some of the movie concepts would also be considered misogynistic. I mean if I think that there is no patriarchy in western civilization at present. That means I don’t agree with a feminist argument and therefore i must despise all women right? It’s the only logical conclusion you would reach “in good faith” 🙄
Edit: thanks for admitting it. I just wanted to make it clear to those who engaged in good faith with the argument.
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Go to the middle east and find it out
Or, alternatively, Western society. We just don’t stone women in public.
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Check again. Things changed a lot.
It’s fun seeing the actual test the article is talking about playing out in real time.
This made me lol
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I am sure you believe that. Don’t worry i am not even trying to educate you. You do you and live with the consequences.
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I agree with Marc Maron in that I miss the old type of stupid, the self-aware type of stupid. Nowadays all of the idiots will scrawl out a complete rant about all the things they’re clueless about (i.e. most anything that requires any actual abilities, knowledge, or research) and try to pretend that they’re educating you in some way.
I’d ask him for a follow up by seems like he’s just repeating himself so I don’t think I’ll bother. The claim is outrageous and needs some deeper explanation by OP.
I am sure you believe that
…says the guy getting ratio’d hard, LOL.
So what, you think that Joe Biden is a transvestite in drag? And that 80% of corporations in the US are actually ran by more trans people???
Yeah buddy okay whatever
Hell I’ve worked at least a half dozen companies where there were no female employees at all.
I am not completeley sure but I think you are discussing in good faith. thanks for showing some people actually do engage in good faith.
I think that in the end it comes down to what you understand by patriarchy. in my personal view as long as you have the same amount of self determination in deciding your future as anyone else then there is no patriarchy. and it’s not a simple matter of just personal responsibility to achieve a goal, the world is opressive. in my views women can decide to marry, in effective terms more women are in higher education than men. and marriage remains is at will. the other arguments are easily debunked if you spend a few minutes looking for the counter argument. you can look it up yourself.
Wait. Sorry, I’m trying to understand, are you saying you actually don’t think patriarchy exists in the West?
I agree liberals will just be reactionary and any critique will be received in bad faith, same way if you’re a Leftist and critique Democrats or Hillary Clinton then they think you’re really a fascist mysogynist, but I’m not sure if that’s what you meant.
Ok let me give my hot take: Patriarchy doesn’t exist in the same way god doesn’t: It’s a bullshit way to analyse the world ultimately more trouble than it’s worth because it obscures instead of clarifies social relations.
That’s evidenced by the theoretical drift the term has taken, from “oh it’s the men” (classical definition: rule of men) to “oh no it’s certain social forces and we’re calling them patriarchy even if propagated by women” (feminist definition starting whatever-wave), leading to stellar analysis such as “female beauty standards are internalised misogyny” which make my head hurt, it’s women saying “look how high status I am I have so much free time to care about non-survival stuff”, pure female competition, men really don’t give a fuck ultimately we like you best in pyjamas and bed hair. So, uncharitable take, “patriarchy exists” means “certain forces exist and I’m uncomfortable acknowledging my own participation in them so I’m deflecting”. Which is why you then see takes such as “the favourite past-time of feminists is to enforce patriarchy” from people who understand academic feminism, referring to what’s happening in political feminism and somehow those sides have stopped talking quite a while ago because what they’re doing is fundamentally irreconcilable as what they share is equivoke terminology, not ideology. QED.
So: Throw out the terminology, re-do it from the ground up with a focus on precision and clarity and without regards for hysterical raisins.
Wait. Sorry, I’m trying to understand, are you saying you actually don’t think patriarchy exists in the West?
Yep, extremely dumb point they were trying to make.
same way if you’re a Leftist and critique Democrats or Hillary Clinton then they think you’re really a fascist mysogynist
Two questions:
- which critiques?
- If you don’t want this country to be fascist or misogynist, how are your critiques helping?
- which critiques?
- If you don’t want this country to be fascist or misogynist, how > are your critiques helping?
God damn, you liberals are dumber than fascists. We’re doomed.
Correct, if you don’t think there is any patriarchy then you might be a shitlord.
How dare you. Recently in my university there was a free course only for women ( i.t. related) men are directly not allowed to participate.
So instead of equality we’re going for revenge. And no one dare deny it. The problem is many young adults only have lived through this all his life if they are like 18-20. They didn’t get to see how bad was it and are only receiving this biased reality, and some of them being radicalized in both directions.
Of course there are many patriarchal things still worth fighting for. But this kind of blind religion "islam make women slaves (true) so we women are all victims of slavery ( not true)… Said a civil worker with exactly the same rights as me, or more, since she can attend that course in my university.
If someone goes on some misogynistic rant then no, you should not date them.
Also if someone needs to test you and wants to goad someone into anything ‘as a test’ then you should not date them either.
Both the tester and the testee should not be in a relationship and need to do some growing up.
Bet they’re the same type who only dates people according to what astrological sign they are 🤣
What do you mean? I can’t think of anything more stable than a grown man burning children’s dolls on the internet after watching a movie based on a toy designed for 6-12 year old girls.
What do I do if my woman does that though?
I just wanted to know where Ken lived.
a Shapiro-esque fit
🤣🤣🤣
I’m using that line
It can also work both ways, by seeing how she sees the corporate feminism thrown around by power-hungry corpos only for the profit. Luckily, my gf and I were sharing the same “yeah, it’s still divisive and murican corpo trash” mentality about the movie, while both of us saying that it was “almost there”
How about a Shoe-esque fit? Lol. I kinda agree with her that if they were trying to make the patriarchy look bad, they failed hard. The Barbie’s seemed to be having more fun in Ken Land. One of them even says as much.
Also there’s no way that Mattel would be upset that the Ken Bro-House was outselling Barbi Dream house. They’re making money, they’d have leaned into it, not tried to shut it down.
I have to admit, Barbie becoming a Chinese feminist icon was not on my 2023 bingo card. Anyone taking bets on when we’re gonna get a kpop version of this classic?
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Good bot!
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We really should have clients redirect to Piped by default
good bot
Barbie starting the revolution in China? Hopefully other countries as well. Good timeline.
Little Pink Cookbook!
Little Pink Cookbook!
Little Pink Cookbook?
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YEAH!!!
I was supposed to read this with a lil jon voice, right?
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I think you meant “YEAH!!!”
China is already communist
No it’s not lol
Their political leaders are billionaires, the workers don’t own any means of production, there’s terrible workers rights, etc.
That’s how communism always ends up. When you hand over majority of the power to the state, it won’t be keen on giving it back.
That’s like saying the US is not capitalist because we don’t have a true free market and better products/services don’t always rise to the top.
These simply aren’t things that can practically happen, just like the workers owning the means of production.
That doesn’t make any sense though. Communism isn’t when you “give power to the state.” It’s a word used to describe a specific economic system that China does not have. The word that best describes what I think you’re getting at is “authoritarian.” Words mean things, and if a thing doesn’t fit the definition of a word, then it isn’t that word.
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Homie, which states have ever actually implemented communism? Calling yourself “Communist” means about as much as North Korea calling themselves a" Democratic People’s Republic" if you don’t actually implement it’s ideas.
Additionally, all attempts at democracy, and all instances of capitalism, have resulted in tyranny, because it’s just really hard to build a society that doesn’t do that no matter what governmental system and economic system you set out to establish.
Even places like New Zealand or the Nordic countries which are much closer to a social democracy are tyrannical insofar as they participate, propagate, and benefit from a global network of capitalism that is only possible through the exploitation of hundreds millions, if not billions of people. Outsourcing your tyranny and exploitation to other places on the planet is still tyranny.and exploitation: it just has better PR.
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Good news everyone, the Politics Understander has logged on
Yeah and North Korea is a democratic republic.
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I think if anyone gets mad at a Barbie movie or some random article on the internet that has nothing to do with them, that’s a good sign they’re emotionally unstable
I’d call it emotionally immature.
A surprising number of the people I grew up or work with act like they’re still in high school when it comes to social/interpersonal skills – these people are all well over 30 years old.
I am only 42, but I work with a bunch of 60+ y/os. They never grow out of it from what I can tell. If they are like that in their 30s they’ll be like that till they die most of the time.
Tomato, tomato. If you’re a grown ass man, emotional immaturity IS instability.
I just treat most people like 16 year Olds and it tends to work out pretty well.
Define “mad”. I’ve watched it (arrr) myself and The Barbie movie is very political, despite them completely hiding it in the trailers and the promotional material.
Fervent political media tends to rile people up, especially when it’s very one-sided. I presume you haven’t seen it and think people are upset over a light hearted comedy.
It’s only political if you think human rights are political. For normal people who care about other people, it’s a light hearted comedy
The fact that I don’t want to go to the movies to watch propaganda doesn’t mean I’m against that propaganda. I go there to be entertained.
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You’ll get nothing from communists in this discussion friend. People refuse to allow our media to be escapism anymore and demand even already addressed issues drilled into ‘entertainment’. We traded pop culture references for this, and somehow I want the references back
The Barbie movie is still escapism, media in general is still escapism. Media has always contained messages or lessons or political meaning, it’s not a new thing, nobody’s disallowing anything. If you don’t like today’s media, maybe it’s because you don’t like the messages they contain anymore. Sometimes you gotta look inward before blaming things on “society”.
It’s my opinion that thematic messages presented now are overt, with little nuance, and hold the same level of failure to look inward biases you claim. There is no discussion to be had when you hold a meeting with strawmen.
Great writers and media of the past were lauded for holding something that is presented as a moral evil up to caliber in logic and presentation. Taking a threat seriously so to speak. Look at an instance like Metal Gear, where despite the intent and presentation saying warmongering is bad, the writers still had the wherewithal to gauge a reasonable position you’d face fighting that ideology. You aren’t meant to agree with Zero or the Patriots or BB. But you can see and understand their logic to lead these actions.
What is this but taking a child’s doll and using it to spew word vomit level rhetoric that focuses on buzzwords and failed symbolism than actually addressing anything core to the point. If you want to make some preaching movie do it. But when you market your film as a lighthearted romp of self discovery involving an inanimate object, don’t be shocked when people push back.
Ahhhhhhh, so you do have a point to make. It took this entire thread for you to share it with us, and it was after it was heavily implied that you’re too much of a social conservative to enjoy art, which I still believe is the case. Did you get all of your talking points from The Critical Drinker? Also, your comparison of Barbie to MGS3 is apples to oranges. Highlighting complicated characters such as Zero and the Patriots doesn’t negate any of the heavy-handedness Kojima is also known for, and it certainly isn’t a compelling argument that the Barbie movie is without nuance or merit.
EvErYoNe WhO dIsAgReEs WiTh Me Is A cOmMuNiSt. You’re not even aware at how much of a self-report you’re doing.
You didn’t reply to their comment, you just added your own idiotic take. The movie isn’t propaganda unless you think a story about women and men having equal rights and equal opportunity is propaganda.
Is The Matrix propaganda? Is Terminator propaganda? Is Star Trek propaganda? All entertaining movies, all have heavy social commentary.
I haven’t seen the Barbie movie. I have no idea what it’s like. My comment was about “propaganda” movies in general
Those are all propaganda, the problem is people use propaganda to mean lies when it means information and ideas disseminated to impact public opinion.
So, you know, basically all art and every intellectual pursuit.
Human rights are political by definition. Feminism is political by definition. That the average person (or at least the ones worth knowing) is a feminist, whether they know it or not, doesn’t mean the ideas aren’t political in nature.
The problem is that people think political means bad or controversial instead of, you know, relating to concepts of governance and self rule.
It’s not one-sided, though. It argues that both matriarchy and patriarchy are not inclusive ways of operating a society. The movie did not shy away from showing Ken’s dissatisfaction living under a matriarchy, just like it did not shy away from showing Gloria and Sasha’s dissatisfaction with living under a patriarchy
I liked that it at least gave a few nods to the idea that living in a patriarchy isn’t necessarily great for all men either. Not all men have power, and even the ones that do aren’t necessarily happier for it and find themselves competing with other men and restricting their own self-expression. That’s a nuance that’s lost in a lot of pop feminist messaging.
Fucking Good. I’ve really got to watch it.
I love it for being an egalitarian movie. More of that please.
That really is the whole point, too. The entire conflict is based on the fact that Barbieland is a construct of the imaginary world created by girls playing with their dolls, in which Ken has only ever been marketed or existed as an accessory to Barbie. His entire existence, in both the real world of marketing and consumerism, and in the imaginary world of Barbie, is predicated solely on giving Barbie arm candy. I’m not entirely convinced that this point was entirely deliberate, but it really does highlight that, in creating a product to give girls a role model that says they can do and be whatever they want, that those girls internalized their understanding of the male-dominated world around them, and flipped that on its head. Their imaginary world is a very literal mirror to our own, and as a result, it is still dominated by the same inherently sexist attitudes, only kinder and gentler because they are created through the lens of childhood innocence. Kids are only able to create with tools and media they understand, and the polarized nature of the world around them, and our intense need to make everything a binary, means that a “fair world” never looks like one where everyone is treated the same. It’s a world where they’re in charge.
I’m not even going to get into the overtly sexist assumption that only girls play with dolls, and with Barbie in particular. Toys are toys, and I never understood the need to tell a kid that something is off limits because it’s pink or is “a doll”. The people who most strongly hold these beliefs tend to be the ones that grew up when GI Joe was a full size doll just like Barbie, with his own clothes and uniforms and such. Well before the idea of an “action figure” came around. These folks played with dolls that were, for all intents and purposes, functionally identical to any girls’ doll of the day, and yet are so quick to slap a Barbie or a Bratz doll out of the hands of their grandsons.
Anyhow, long story short, it’s a great movie that explores some very heavy subject matter, and almost but not quite gets its own premise. Most of the people who are irrationally angry with the film have never seen it, and probably won’t for fear of being turned gay, or worse: liberal.
Exactly the way actual feminism does instead of the conservative boogeyman “feminism” that’s just female chauvinism espoused by an extreme minority.
despite them completely hiding it in the trailers and promotional material
…
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There are only two categories: the status quo (no matter how shitty it might be for some populations) and “political”.
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If it’s talking about equality then it’s not political. People’s lives are not political they are not objects for other people to react to. Touch grass.
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A matter of opinion. I thought that it was quite poorly written in the second half
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Really funny movie I’m glad with the direction that they went with it
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It’s very obvious here that no one is saying “if you don’t like a Barbie movie then you’re sexist.” The point is if you don’t agree with equality, whether in a movie or irl, then that’s the problem. But I feel like you probably already know this.
But yes, if people from certain religions and political parties would just stop with the racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and xenophobia, maybe people wouldn’t feel the need to express
cultural valuesthe oppression they’re experiencing. Maybe consumers wouldn’t identify so much with the message of films like this. Yet somehow it’s always positive media like this that gets pushback, and meanwhile, laws keep getting passed in bumfuck states that are stripping human rights from people one by one. But sure, Barbie is the “exhausting” issue here.In other words, maybe there wouldn’t be media “pushing” for equality if we already had it.
And idk, I find Marvel/superhero bullshit to be exhausting and immature and just bad, so I don’t watch any of it, I block everything about it on lemmy and reddit, and I don’t comment on it. Then it’s not exhausting anymore.
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You should add a TL;DR to that which says “I don’t understand feminism and I’m making it everyone else’s problem.”
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Some people do.
Just like some people genuinelly believe the Earth is Flat and some people will have no problem drinking their own piss on a dare.
And then beyond those weirdos there’s an entire subculture of weirdos out there whose wierdness is to pay massive attention to and rage all about what weirdos do and, worse, they’re divided into factions and they’ll feed-on and feed-out weirdo rage between factions, so it doesn’t take much to trigger them into a positive feedback cycle of weirdo raging about weirdos.
The secret here is to remember that although they are often loud and lacking self-restraint on the Internet, all those weirdos (in all factions as well as factionless) still add up to a minority of people.
People are free to be mad at anything as they please as long as they dont harm to other people.
Or maybe people should not be mad at news article of Russia invading Ukraine for no reason?
You are comparing war to an article on Barbie lmao I can’t take you seriously
It is an article. Both.
Dont worry, I also dont take people on Internet seriously. Most of them are not even my equal.
damn dude. I hate people too, but jeez.
I am genuinely amazed this movie wasn’t banned in China
Well they included the nine-dash line in the movies silly map (I believe Vietnam banned the movie because of this) and there’s no zombies or Winnie the Pooh references so all good as far as the CCP goes.
9 dash line?
It’s a line China drew in the south china sea and claim its theirs for historical reason if I remember correctly.
Pissed off a load of other countries as it claimed some of their ocean defined by international law
Wikipedia link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line
https://twitter.com/rzhongnotes/status/1675936014135619584?s=20
How the fuck can anyone take this seriously is my question. This is not a geopolitical map.
I suppose the argument would be that including the line must be a political argument because it’s even more absurd to include it on the map otherwise.
In reality, some intern probably googled a map and noted the line and decided to include it without understanding the context, being a generic idiot American.
It’s China’s interpretation of how the South China Sea should be divided. AKA they claim the vast majority of it.
This is an insult to the free world. Fuck the Barbie movie.
Tbh that map looks nothing like the nine dash map and there are only eight dashes. It’s quite a stretch imo
It’s absolutely intentionally supposed to be the 9 dash line. You don’t think movie studios are INTIMATELY aware of how to get their movie seen in China?
I thought the movie criticizes both extreme feminism and male chauvinism, or did I watch a different Barbie movie?
That’s what the article is saying as well.
Any gendered chauvinism sucks and patriarchy causes suffering to anyone.
And if someone comes out of the movie angered by this knowledge, they can be a troublesome person to other people.
Yeah. Barbie Was not the good guy in the Barbie movie, right? Like, even in the end they admit that they will not give the Kens true equality, just enough that they basically won’t revolt again. People here calling Barbie a feminist icon, what movie were you watching?
Obviously she wasn’t the good guy. She developed a nuclear bomb for heaven’s sake. To be fair I did fall asleep for a bit but I’m pretty sure I got the big plot points.
Lmfao what the actual fuck?
I didn’t watch the movie, nor do I know anything about the premise, so seeing that comment and thinking about Barbie the toy is absolutely hilarious…
It was a Barbienheimer joke, I think
He’s making a joke about Barbenheimer…
That’s the point. They blatantly say “someday, the Ken’s will have as much rights as women do in the real world”
The entire point is that treating people as second class like thst isn’t good, regardless of which side its coming from and that we should all be equal. The only time I’d see men complaining about that is when they don’t get it.
That line literally made my jaw drop because I had just been thinking, “Wow this is still kinda messed up. I thought their society would end up much more equal” and then BAM! that line hits. That movie was so good. I’ve been trying to get everyone I know to see it.
Same. I was thinking the exact same thing at that point. A massive part of the movie’s message hinges on that line and I smiled so wide when I heard it because it clicked much of the rest of the film into place.
Like, even in the end they admit that they will not give the Kens true equality, just enough that they basically won’t revolt again.
That example isn’t really accurate, they say the Kens eventually will be given the same representativity as the women in the real world. That line is more of a jab against gender inequality than anything.
Yeah. I would not take it that literally. I’d say it means they’re gonna do to Kens what “the patriarchy” and many people who support it do to women. Concede rights when they absolutely have to and begrudgingly accept them for the sake of avoiding bigger problems, but still believe in their own supremacy and acting one way while publicly pretending to be accepting of feminism. Then they will say, see, you have all this rights and equality now, no need for “Keninism” anymore and slowly start to backslide and undermine those rights when they feel like they can.
They’re rather copying the spirit of real world patriarchy than just plainly introducing the same laws as it
Yes! This is a great way to put it and shows the mirror it’s putting up to Western society
Oh that sounds more of a nuanced theme than I was expecting. Cool.
Sure but it’s still them making a conscious choice to keep oppressing a group until an unrelated reality fixes their shit. Doesn’t sound like they’re good guys at all tbh.
Sure but it’s still them making a conscious choice to keep oppressing a group until an unrelated reality fixes their shit.
I hope you see the irony in that phrase.
Doesn’t sound like they’re good guys at all tbh.
This isn’t Star Wars my dude, not everything needs to be good vs evil. Sometimes there’s even room for satire.
Yeah the movie doesn’t paint them as good guys though? The narrator comes in and states that they aren’t at that point, and stereotypical Barbie leaves because she can’t see herself as taking part in such a system anymore.
But even though the women have the control, they do not oppress men like men do to women in the real world. Men still do everything they want, even if the women have the power because the women make the world amazing for everyone. A little different from reality.
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It’s not that they’re homeless, it’s just that where they live isn’t important to the story. This is because when little girls play with Ken dolls, they don’t give Ken any backstory. Kens are only there for supporting Barbie’s journey.
I don’t think they’re supposed to be “good guys”.
I think that was the point, it’s the perfect mirror to the real world. Everyone not okay with how the Barbies treat the Kens in the end should think for a second why that is and why anyone should accept the reverse in the real world.
It’s also kind of a clever subtle call to action. “If you don’t like this ending, you can change it by changing things in the real world.”
“Stereotypical Barbie” (the Margot Robbie one) actually seems to get it by the end. In fact, her main character arc was going from being like the other barbies—watered down stereotypes of feminism—to actually a feminist who has a better grasp of why just equalizing out positions of power, while still good, does not address the root of patriarchy.
Okay, I’ll admit I had not the slightest clue what the plot was to Barbie before opening this post but I’m getting a little curious about this movie now.
It’s a fantastic movie, and I’d recommend seeing it and making your own judgement. Personally, I understand why some people got the wrong idea from it because while it does spell out a lot of it’s thematic arguments, it doesn’t spell all of them out as explicitly and that’s where I think most of the “Barbie Movie hates men” stuff stems from.
Anyway, watch the movie. It’s my favorite one of the year.
(Side point: it’s also a bit ironic because most of the reviews I’ve seen missing that it’s actually very cognizant of how patriarchy negatively affects men also criticize how explicit it is about it’s other themes…like…do they want the movie to explicitly spell out it’s themes or not, because either way it’s being criticized.)
It didn’t end up in a world that’s ready. More like a mirror of the real world but maybe healthier?
That is indeed what is in Barbie - if you watch it and actually think about the themes. If you’re just there for the experience then the message is (quote moviegoer behind my back discussing with friends): “goddamn, this is a step in right direction, we won’t change this patriarchal world with one film however“ :P
On a basic level the message “Ken was silly, broke Barbieworld because he wanted to emulate men, they had to get Barbie and a feminist back to fix it” - and that’s what most people will get out of Barbie.
On a basic level the message “Ken was silly, broke Barbieworld because he wanted to emulate men, they had to get Barbie and a feminist back to fix it”
How did he break it? He basically just flipped the genders so Kens are the ruling/working class and Barbies are just subservient eye candy. Barbie just flipped it back. It’s a broken and unimaginably unfair world in either case.
When Kens ask just for a bit of equality at the end, they are shut down and given some unimportant appeasement as a joke.
When Kens ask just for a bit of equality at the end, they are shut down and given some unimportant appeasement as a joke.
The movie is calling this out on purpose. It’s how women are currently treated in western society.
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I don’t think that’s the feminism that the movie was criticizing, but rather the commodified “girl boss feminism” that holds up conventionally beautiful commercial attainment as the ultimate aspirational icon.
As opposed to the feminism of intersectionality and respect for the rights and choices of normal, everyday women.
My boyfriend and i can’t wait to watch this movie 😊 💕 (but cinema got expensiv dudeee 🥲)
Please partake in the culture war, don’t just let conservatives win by default.
Of note…American conservatives/confederates absolutely detest the Barbie movie.
For those who saw the movie: do you think this test is valid?
As a man, I would say sort of. The movie does not shy away from a very obvious feminist message combined with an unsubtle (hilarious) spoof of toxic masculinity. On the other hand, it’s still a matter of personal taste. I really liked the movie, but I could see how someone would find it a bit too simplistic and formulaic in its story, completely independent from its themes. Not liking female directors in general just because they’re female is complete bullshit though.
To be fair it doesn’t say the boyfriend has the like the movie, just understand it and not bash it mindlessly.
I thought the movie was okay. The visuals were stunning the dance numbers fun (if you’re into that, which I am), they did a good job leaning into the comedy world-building and the takes on Ken loving the patriarchy were the most hilarious. Overall I think it did a good job. The story was a bit meh though for me because of how simple it was.
I haven’t seen it, but the criticism I’ve heard is that the feminist message is a pretty obvious one and not very deep. I guess you don’t go to the Barbie movie to “make you think”, but I’ve also heard that the movie spends a bit too long on that obvious message and it gets boring at parts. I think the majority of criticisms aren’t about the message itself, more about the execution of it.
Buuutt this is the internet and the ridiculous voices are always the loudest lol
I haven’t seen it
Do you think we can’t talk about movie reviews unless we’ve seen the movie? Kinda makes the reviews pointless then doesn’t it
you should go see the movie to form your own opinions. plus, it’s a good movie :)
I love reviews for after watching a movie, I don’t want my impression to be changed by someone else.
For example, I loved the Ralph Breaks The Internet sequel! I guess people and reviewers really hated that movie.
So those reviews didn’t impact your decision to see the movie and didn’t change your opinion of the movie after the fact? Sounds like the reviews were kinda pointless for you then, huh? Or at least not useful in their intended way.
I don’t know I one should derive a scientific test out of it, but if a guy gets batshit crazy over the movie, then he might not have the best relation towards independent women.
As a gay man, I say yes. I get to watch the hetero world from the outside and yeah, Barbie nails it. Folks just don’t like the mirror.
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It doesn’t say you have to like the movie, just understand its themes.
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I tend to prefer similar movies as you and I loved the movie. It is a VERY fantastical, intelligent, existential, and heady movie. It’s one of the most expert navigations of complex social dynamics I’ve ever seen and has an absolute shitload of cinema references and easter eggs to boot.
Don’t let the surface fool you. The franchise is just a vehicle for Greta’s ideas to reach a mass audience.
The franchise is a vehicle to sell barbies.
Mattel decided this was the best way in the current cultural mood.
Vehicles tend to have space for many things. Writers also tend to not be massive corporations even while speaking for said corporations.
That’s like saying The Lego Movie and the Lego Batman movie were a vehicle to sell Legos. That’s pretty obviously not all they were, and just because they could sell toys that doesn’t mean they weren’t also good movies.
I second your opinion and I’m a woman. I just never liked the franchise, no matter how good the movie is, I don’t think I’d enjoy watching it either.
You might not like it, but I have huge barbie issues and went with my 11 yo thinking it would be okay and poke a but of fun and have a slightly feminist bent. I truly loved every minute and am surprised how much I did. It is formulaic but done really well.
It’s rare, but this franchise owner understands very well that a lot of people hate Barbie. It’s even in the trailer “If you love Barbie, this movie is for you. If you hate Barbie, this movie is for you.”
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having a taste does not mean to show hatred. You can simply dislike something and you’re done.
But if you show hatred to a movie, a show, a book and the people who worked on that (actors, directors…) I think you have some issues. And that’s what this article is about right?
Yes. And the movie is fun and wholesome for anyone with taste!
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No. The movie is very antagonistic towards men. I don’t think anyone who has seen the movie can dispute that in good faith.
Practically every male character in both the Barbie world and the real world is portrayed negatively. There are a few exceptions that are portrayed neutrally but they are mostly plot or exposition devices.
Conversely, practically every female character is portrayed positively. This creates a stark contrast that’s very difficult to ignore.
To be clear - personally I don’t care, it takes more to rile me up. But hating a movie that is deliberately spiteful towards your demographic is not an abnormal reaction. Neither is “slamming” the people who made it.
Man here. I disagree.
The movie is only “antagonistic towards men” if you think the Kens are somehow supposed to be a 1:1 realistic depiction of real life men which is something not only not textually supported but also actively and explicitly contradicted by the film
The kens aren’t stupid because they’re men, they’re stupid because they’re Ken Dolls. Both Kens and Barbies are highly hyperbolic depictions of how little girls play with Barbies and Kens.
Personally, I found the movie to be very empowering as a man too. I’d recommended rewatching it and trying to think critically about what the movie is doing. It’s a film, not an after school special where every character is supposed to be a direct black-and-white representation of “thing good” or “thing bad”
It’s antagonistic towards the patriarchy. You completely misunderstood the Ken plot and are the one arguing in bad faith.
In fact, your response is exactly why some people view the movie as a good way to see what an individual pays attention to and whether or not they genuinely understand what the film is critiquing and why.
You failed.
Do you really not see that’s how women are typically treated in movies? They’re just there to be arm candy to the men, don’t have real personality or depth, and just exist to make the men feel good about themselves.
It’s just funny to watch dudes get so riled up about how kens are treated, especially when at the end the Kens do get their own story arc. Unlike how women are treated in nearly all movies.
I definitely think it would do a fantastic job of baiting out reactions and listening to what someone has to say about it after would probably clue you in on what stood out to them about it. Obviously none of these types of tests can be conclusive, but I’d say if someone came out of the theater super angry then that’s pretty telling of something at least. A good starting point for further discussion with that person.
On the whole I thought the movie was hilarious and had a very compassionate message for men at the end of the movie as well.
My biggest issue after watching it has just been having to see braindead takes from people online, swinging in both directions. Lots of “the movie hates men” types but I’ve also seen a few “DAE, men bad?” tier takes as well which is a bit disheartening.
I don’t know if it’s defininitive, but I do think it offers good insight into what a person notices when they watch things. There’s a whole lot to notice and think about in the movie
That’s interesting. I read that the film was about radical feminism, but gender switched with Ken as the feminist to overthrow the Barbie-dominating system. Really look forward to seeing the movie.
According to the guide, if a man shows hatred for “Barbie” and slams female directors after they leave the theatre, then this man is “stingy” and a “toxic chauvinist,” according to Insider’s translation of the post
Nothing against female directors, but the movie went from pretty damn good to pretty damn boring after a while.
You’ve got a fun and quirky beginning that makes light fun of barbie, mattel and patriarchal society. Then you’ve got the bits where
spoiler
Barbie and Ken get to the real world, get arrested twice for doing stupid shit.
This part was funny and for a bit there I felt like it was mainly not about driving a message home, but still had SOME things to say. Great! Then you’ve got the parts where
spoiler
Ken went on his own journey to discover patriarchy (which he thought had something to do with horses and was disappointed to find out it didn’t), Barbie meets her owner’s daughter, goes to Mattel HQ, then gets chased out and rescued by her owner.
Many hilarious moments here, poking lots of fun at patriarchy again, but it never felt like it was too on the nose. I mean I kinda expected that from the trailers and everything.
Where the movie started changing for me was when
spoiler
Barbie, her owner, and the latter’s daughter went back to the Barbie world to help fix the balance, only to find out that the Kens had completely taken over.
While the twist was predictable, it was still interesting because I wanted to know how they would resolve it. But it just kinda… fell off after that? At this point you have the expected low point in the protagonist’s life, and then they figure out how to fix everything, but it was just so… boring and uninspired somehow. By this point, the movie’s quirky and fun nature has worn down its’ course and the
spoiler
battle of the Kens
just did nothing for me anymore.
What’s worse, I was expecting
spoiler
the Mattel board of directors, particularly Will Ferrell’s characters to be villains and instead they just… arrived by the end of the movie and had a change of heart.
That subverted my expectations for sure, but not in a good way whatsoever. Slightly reminiscent of the last seasons of Game of Thrones.
And lastly, I really expected the resolution of the plot to have something to do with horses and I was sorely disappointed about that too.
TL;DR: Movie starts out great, but foreshadows things it doesn’t follow through on very well, ending is boring and sappy.
How dare you, that dance-off between Simu Liu and Ryan Gosling (and the other Kens) was incredible!
Ken was alright, but Ken really stole the show in that scene.
Eh, I think I liked Ken more.
Your silence on Ken is deafening.
I believe the term is “beach off”
I’ll beach you off right now!
I was just waiting for them to kiss tbh
based
About at the part where ::: spoiler spoiler Barbie is comforting Ken on the bed ::: I said to my partner “It feels like this movie has been ending for a while now,” and that was still a good way off from credits. I did appreciate that ::: spoiler spoiler Barbie and Ken didn’t end up together, it was a good message that men and women both need to be okay with themselves before they pursue a relationship. I loved the “I am Kenough” shirt. :::
A few issues I had personally (oops wall of text lol): ::: spoiler spoiler They really hold their punches on toxic masculinity. There are no men who are outright misogynistic and believe women to be subhuman. They’re all just dumb and misguided. They also made a small attempt to point out that patriarchal society is negative for men too with the “sometimes I wish we could all have tickle fights” bit, but I do wish they would have dug a little deeper into how awful it is that men are expected to never have emotions and bottle up. It was also really weird that the kid called Barbie a fascist… It almost felt like they were using that word wrong on purpose to reduce its meaning, or get Republicans in the audience to roll their eyes at the stupid SJW calling everything they don’t like fascist. Also weird that at different points the movie claims Barbie saved women or set them back 50 years…like, it’s just a doll. Yes, a popular doll, but it’s weird to claim women gained or lost power in society solely because of a doll and not through the actions of feminists and antifeminists. :::
I’m general, I’m happy with the film’s lessons, although it feels weird for Hollywood to be the one preaching them to me.
Most of the scenes were pretty enjoyable in isolation. The problem I see is that it feels like they tried to combine two scripts to address the same issue from opposite directions. Either approach could have been good, but each one undercut the other so it just wound up confusedly sabotaging its message.
I can agree with this, the messages got super muddy. They tried to say something about being a woman, being a man, and being a human, but all three were dulled from being stacked on top of each other.
I don’t think this at all. It’s a very dense movie, but I don’t think it suffered for it, and if anything actually enhanced the message that a lot of social expectations are murky and arbitrary.
I’m planning on seeing it again.
Yeah, I overall liked the movie but there were a lot of questionable moments in it. The point where they recognize that using Margot Robbie for some of their points kinda undercuts the points was odd to me. I also didn’t like the child of the movie, I didn’t feel like she was really a character.
I really like the fun energy of the movie, it feels like a giant music video and I love that. But the social commentary moments are just so on the nose it just feels weird that it’s coming from a movie about Barbie. It feels like it can’t decide whether the audience is supposed to be children or nostalgic adults.
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That’s not what I meant at all and have adjusted the text to hopefully be more clear.
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As someone who watched it high, too many drastic vibe changes. From a fun laughably corny movie, to this serious 10 minute diatribe about every possible challenge a woman could potentially face in her life really killed the mood. Many of the scenes with the mother/daughter really detracted from the film honestly.
It’s like putting jar jar in star wars.
Sounds schizophrenic
I find your criticism of the parts of the movie you don’t like to be super weak and unspecific. The crux of the entire movie is the juxtaposition between what’s it’s like in Barbie ruled barbie world vs ken ruled barbie world. It’s literally the lens though which the movie criticizes patriarchy.
Ken bringing patriarchy back to barbie world I don’t think was a twist, it was the clear narrative arc from the moment ken fell in love with patriarchy.
Matell being villains is a clear misreading of the plot from your point of view. Matell is the butt of the joke the entirety of the film. They don’t drive the plot, and were never in control of anything that happens. Why would you expect them to become the villains? That’s your own internal biases leaking (and maybe putting too much of Mugatu onto will Farrell)
Lastly, in much the same way that the opening of barbie is an homage to 2001 a space Odyssey, (that scene they are parodying specifically in the original movie is about the death of old paradigms and the beginning of new ones), the beach battle is an homage to patriarchally driven war media, specifically D-Day scenes such as from saving private Ryan. It’s the death of patriarchy subverted through a traditionally patriarchal approach.
I find your criticism of the parts of the movie you don’t like to be super weak and unspecific
It’s been 2 weeks and the latter half of the movie wasn’t good enough to remember every detail tbh, I just remember which parts I enjoyed and which made me sleepy. I watched Oppenheimer right after and have a much better recollection of that. I’m also neither a movie critic, nor even a native English speaker, so I don’t really know all the jargon I should be using instead of saying things like “boring”.
The crux of the entire movie is the juxtaposition between what’s it’s like in Barbie ruled barbie world vs ken ruled barbie world. It’s literally the lens though which the movie criticizes patriarchy.
Cool, I didn’t criticize that at all though, I said it got boring when they started SOLVING the issue.
Matell being villains is a clear misreading of the plot from your point of view. Matell is the butt of the joke the entirety of the film. They don’t drive the plot, and were never in control of anything that happens. Why would you expect them to become the villains?
Did we watch the same movie? The Mattel board was incompetent for sure (of course they would be, they’re men who only got their powerful jobs because of the patriarchy), but they were antagonists in the first half of the movie, would’ve caught her if she hadn’t been helped by America Ferrera’s character, and it was foreshadowed that they would at least… DO something in the second half of the movie. They literally started marching to barbie world to grab her as she could move between worlds and they obviously had a problem with it. Then they get there and it was resolved with essentially no conflict, they just had a change of heart. I could’ve seen them cutting a deal of some sort with the Kens to stop Barbie or something like that. You know, men conspiring to keep women down (which of course is exactly what the Kens were doing, I’m just surprised that the Mattel board didn’t try to do it in barbie world).
Ken bringing patriarchy back to barbie world I don’t think was a twist, it was the clear narrative arc from the moment ken fell in love with patriarchy.
I guess twist isn’t the right term. I didn’t put much more than 5 minutes of thought into writing the original comment, and as mentioned, I’m neither a movie critic, nor a native speaker. You still get what I meant though.
the beach battle is an homage to patriarchally driven war media, specifically D-Day scenes such as from saving private Ryan. It’s the death of patriarchy subverted through a traditionally patriarchal approach.
Sure, and I don’t disagree with the idea of it, it’s just that by the time we get to it, we’re used to everything the movie throws at us and it feels too weak to save the end of the movie, which other than this scene is just slow, emotional and boring compared to the setup. Going by the first half of the movie, I just wasn’t expecting that much sap and speechmaking towards the end. Traditionally movies start slow and then speed up, but Barbie started fast and then kinda slowed down and that just doesn’t sit well with me.
I fully agree. It was a fun movie to see but that’s about it… they could have made such a good ending and set up a sequel
Ehhhhh, sequel??
You really wouldn’t want to see a barbie vs he-man movie? Or some other ridiculous set up? I’m not even a big fan of the movie… just seemed like a good financial idea for Mattel
They’re allowed to watch Barbie in China? How censored is it?
… if a man shows hatred for “Barbie” and slams female directors after they leave the theatre, then this man is “stingy” …
Didn’t knew there were that many female directors in China. Let alone having to watch their back to not get sucker-punched for it.
if a man understands even half of the movie’s themes, “then he is likely a normal guy
And when ask about the movie, if he says “she’s hot” and starts masturbating?
he is horny and you should bonk him
All this stuff around the movie is making me not want to see it.
I want to watch a movie, not be evaluated on my reaction to it.
