Whilst this is not a local only post/community, it is primarily intended for blahaj lemmy members. Top level replies from non blahaj accounts will be removed.
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I want to take the moment to clarify the Blahaj Lemmy position on things, given recent events and the fallout that has followed. This will give people the chance to decide for themselves if blahaj zone lemmy is the right space for them, or if it doesn’t meet their needs.
First and foremost, blahaj zone lemmy exists to give a space for queer folk to exist, with their needs explicitly protected as the highest priority, and with a particular focus on the needs of gender diverse folk. Most lemmy instances are not run by trans folk, and whilst many are still inclusive, they don’t always prioritise our needs. Others barely consider trans folk, and react only to the most blatant of bigotry.
We are not a political instance, however political communities have a space here, as does any community that is actively protective of the needs of queer and gender diverse folk. Given the impact of politics on gender diverse folk, that means lots of dialogue and strong opinions exist, and as long as those opinions are honestly held, and not bigoted or exclusive, people are welcome to have and express those opinions here.
For what it’s worth, I am a member of the Greens Party in Australia. I have no time for the middle ground politics of the Australian Labor party, let alone the right wing beliefs of the Australian Liberal party. Yet a community of queer Labor Party aligned folk would fit on blahaj lemmy, because the parties ideologies, are not explicitly anti queer. A community aligned with the Australian Liberal party likely would not have a place here, unless the goal of the community was to work at actively challenging the anti queer policies of the party.
That being said, political communities (or any other communities) that exist solely to target and take aim at other queer folk have no place here either. The goal of blahaj lemmy is queer inclusion, and a community whose sole goal is division, will be removed.
The downside to this is that as we assume good faith in members and we don’t gatekeep or deny access to people because of their pronouns or gender identity, (even when those identities are challenging to many) it is possible for bad faith actors to take advantage of our inclusive policies. Unfortunately, that’s just something we are going to have to navigate as it occurs, because I won’t let bad faith folk push this instance to defaulting to exclusion or gatekeeping the validity of someone’s identity. I will respect a trolls pronouns even as I ban them, because to not do so, normalises the idea that pronouns are something that are earned by good behaviour, or that other people have a say in the validity of another person’s identity and pronouns.
So that’s where we stand. Hopefully this will help people decide for themselves whether or not this is the right instance for them.
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Once again Ada cuts through the bullshit elegantly and unapologetically. This is 100% the home for me
👏👏👏👏
There isn’t a thing here I don’t agree with. Which affirms that this is the right place for me.
Yeah, even to my outsider eyes, that does seem an incredibly reasonable and well thought out statement. “Everybody is welcome - but these are our rules.” One of the strangely most adult things I’ve read for a bit…
Welcome to moderation by Ada. One of the most levelheaded people I know of.
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Many thanks to Ada here for the wisdom and patience it takes to navigate these challenges. Running an instance is hard enough; throwing user politics into the mix (especially those around trans identities) makes things down right treacherous.
I’d support policies aligned with expected user behaviors and punishments for violations. Bad faith actors are going to try to burrow their way in here, and they’re going to make themselves known by testing boundaries and creeping up on the lines of what counts as unacceptable behavior. I’m comfortable with those kinds of edging-trolls being shown the door.
I appreciate everything you and the other admins do to keep this a trans and queer centered instance 🩷🩵🤍
Likewise. This isn’t my home instance but it makes me happy to see overtly queer spaces here on Lemmy; I’m not trans, but my life has been immeasurably improved by being in community with trans people.
i 100% agreed with the respecting a trolls pronouns thing, until i came here. i still do, with the notable exception that i will not respect someone’s pronouns when those pronouns make me feel sexually exploited - and when those pronouns have absolutely nothing to do with gender and are more about making a mockery of trans people and playing out a power fantasy over other people.
ban me for this if you want but i haven’t spoken directly about this situation on this instance precisely because i expect to be banned for doing so, and it’s simply not the same as any other situation with pronouns. the pronouns themselves are the issue. i’m a discord mod and sometimes i have to ban trolls with obviously racist, transphobic, or nazi pronouns - i don’t respect those either. i can’t see this situation as any different when the pronouns themselves genuinely make some people feel unsafe.
i would also add that you cannot have an instance without politics. trying to do so is making a political decision, and it is one that ultimately invites fascism. i would love it if all trans people had politics that were safe to be around. but they don’t.
when those pronouns have absolutely nothing to do with gender and are more about making a mockery of trans people and playing out a power fantasy over other people.
If and when you can demonstrate evidence that that is what was happening, I will act on it, but until then, as I stated, I’m not willing to gatekeep people’s identities on my personal assessment of their validity. That’s not going to change.
I can and will moderate on behaviour however, but in the case of the person I believe you are referring to, after a moderation chat I’ve seen no evidence of continuing behaviour at odds with our instance guidelines.
i can’t see this situation as any different when the pronouns themselves genuinely make some people feel unsafe.
If someone’s pronouns make you feel unsafe, that’s more of an issue you need to work on than anything else IMO. I know I’ve struggled with “it” as a pronoun, because it’s historically a slur that has been targeted against our community. Seeing people use it made me deeply uncomfortable, and when I first heard it, I assumed, as you’re assuming, that the people using it were doing it in bad faith. I’ve since come to understand that my assumptions were incorrect, and that my discomfort is my issue to work through, not something I get to force on to others.
And until such time as we find a way of reading people’s minds to determine their intentions, all we can do is respect what they tell us about who they are, and respond to their behaviour.
If you disagree with that approach, then you’re likely to find your experience here frustrating.
i would also add that you cannot have an instance without politics
Of course not. As I said in the post that you’re replying to, political communities are welcome here. This is especially true, because of the impact that politics has on our lives as queer folk.
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I removed your post for gatekeeping, but I did want to address one point…
You asked how I would react to someone coming on here and stating that their pronouns are “attack/helicopter”.
I want to point you in the direction of Isabel Fall. Isabel Fall is a transgender woman who wrote a story called “I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter”. She did it as a middle finger to the slur and as an act of reclamation. In response, she was hounded off of the internet. People accused her of being a nazi.
She was hospitalised, because her own mental health put her at risk of suicide from the strength of the response.
So yes, if Isabel Fall, or someone else, came here trying to reclaim slurs like that, they are explicitly welcome to do so. I also understand that people acting in bad faith can and likely will try and abuse that. But until such a time as I can read their minds to determine their intentions, so I can tell the Isabel Falls apart from the trolls, all I can act on is their behaviour.
I won’t act on someone’s pronouns alone, and that includes someone using reclaimed slurs (hell, “It” is a reclaimed slur used as a pronoun) or capital letters (we capitalise “I” and don’t think anything of what that represents)
The example with Isabel Fall does not fit here, as moderation action against someone like her, or asking/requiring those types of pronouns to be changed/removed is not equivalent to the response she received. This sounds like you’re saying that moderation action for offensive pronouns will lead to people getting hurt to the degree she did, but it won’t, so this is irrelevant.
You didn’t address the other user’s example of 14/88 as a pronoun, or ones that have explicitly sexual connotations.
Would you also take no action if someone used the n-word (hard r), the f-slur etc? Or obviously sexual ones like Master or Daddy? Would you require minors to also use these pronouns so they don’t misgender that person?
This all is just being tolerant to a fault. I myself am trans, I am supportive of neopronouns and xenogenders, but there’s a limit. And that is when other people are getting hurt or made extremely uncomfortable, and when it’s just obvious that it’s in bad faith.
You didn’t address the other user’s example of 14/88 as a pronoun
You can’t reclaim nazi terminology, because those terms are not slurs, but dogwhistles for hate. As such, someone using them would be instantly banned.
Or obviously sexual ones like Master or Daddy? Would you require minors to also use these pronouns so they don’t misgender that person?
Requiring minors to use sexual terms to talk to you also falls under “act on their behaviour, not their pronouns”. It too would lead to an instant ban.
This all is just being tolerant to a fault
It’s mostly you getting upset at scenarios that can’t occur, because your examples would nearly all be moderated under the “moderate their behaviour, not their pronouns”.
Neopronouns are welcome. Reclaimed slurs as pronouns have a place here. Dogwhistles for hatred do not.
And that is when other people are getting hurt or made extremely uncomfortable, and when it’s just obvious that it’s in bad faith.
Isabel Fall was “obviously in bad faith” to most people who hounded her.
You can’t reclaim nazi terminology, because those terms are not slurs, but dogwhistles for hate. As such, someone using them would be instantly banned.
Happy to hear that, it sounded like that wasn’t the case from the conversation so far.
Requiring minors to use sexual terms to talk to you also falls under “act on their behaviour, not their pronouns”. It too would lead to an instant ban.
I think you misunderstood me there. I am talking about you requiring minors to use these sexual terms, because of people using those terms as their pronouns. As otherwise, they would be misgendering them.
It’s mostly you getting upset at scenarios that can’t occur, because your examples would nearly all be moderated under the “moderate their behaviour, not their pronouns”.
The only “behavior” I am talking about is using these terms as pronouns, which some people do. Usually for malicious reasons, of course.
Also, didn’t the attack helicopter thing get used as a dog whistle? I’ve never seen it used as a slur (calling someone an attack helicopter). It’s always just been “I identify as an attack helicopter” and similar sentences to make fun of the concept of gender identity and invalidate trans people.
Isabel Fall was “obviously in bad faith” to most people who hounded her.
Sure, but the recourse for someone like that on Lemmy from a moderator perspective would simply be to ask them to not use “attack helicopter” as a pronoun, not to witch hunt them.
Happy to hear that, it sounded like that wasn’t the case from the conversation so far.
Only if you arrived here with preconceived ideas.
As otherwise, they would be misgendering them.
Requiring minors to use sexual terms to address you would get you banned.
Also, didn’t the attack helicopter thing get used as a dog whistle?
It was a term aimed at queer folk to dehumanise us. People are allowed to reclaim terms like that.
Sure, but the recourse for someone like that on Lemmy from a moderator perspective would simply be to ask them to not use “attack helicopter” as a pronoun,
I’m not going to gatekeep people on their pronouns. I will address problematic behaviour.
It’s that simple. You aren’t a user of this instance, and this isn’t a request for feedback, so if you disagree, that’s your prerogative, but that’s how it works here.
it’s ok, it’s only the atheists that get offended…
edit: i mean in this case
and you will continue to get your members hurt until you learn to take a more principled stance. you didn’t respond to the 14/88 pronouns bit, i might add. goodbye. you can find me on hexbear if you ever have a change of heart.
you didn’t respond to the 14/88 pronouns bit, i might add.
There is no way to “reclaim” nazi pronouns, because they aren’t a slur, but rather a self applied label to tell the world that the person using them is a hateful bigot, so no, they have no place here. Using pronouns like that isn’t an act of reclamation, but a statement of bigotry, which has no place here.
I thought that was too obvious to need to make explicit…
and you will continue to get your members hurt until you learn to take a more principled stance.
If you think what happened to Isabel Fall was the correct response, because people took a “principled stance”, then we’re not going to see eye to eye, and this probably isn’t the best space to suit your needs.
Don’t threaten us with a good time with someone like you out of the picture.
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This is tacitly about a user you’ve already banned,
I think you’ve got your users mixed up
I think you’ve coyly avoided specifying, whilst censoring all efforts to clarify what the hell happened here.
edit: And treating all mention of someone’s stated problems as “ableism,” despite this whole thing being about taking people at their word no matter what.
You’re welcome to repost without the ableism or digs at specific users.
Thank you for that story. I’m partway through the Vox article on Isabel’s experiences. It’s fascinating. I’d really like to be able to read her story. It sounds like good writing.
My partner identifies as an airplane. It was built shortly after WWII as a prototype to experiment with a new swooped wing design in combination with afterburners. It likes to play War Thunder to affirm its gender. If you care to explore the deep reaches of furaffinity and several websites, there’s actually a whole fetish subculture about sentient airplanes. I’ve met a couple people from within the community who also identify as planes. One of them’s a Cybertronian (a transformer) who turns into a plane. There are artists who regularly draw this stuff and have communities of fans. I’ve never met a helicopter, but I’m sure they exist. I bet they hide themselves away extra-good to avoid being attacked by crusaders. You probably have to fill out an extensive verification to be allowed on the helicopter Discord servers. When I first started dating My partner, years ago, it was so shy. I wasn’t allowed in its cockpit for months. It’s still just as shy, but we’ve known each other a long time now and it trusts Me to fly it. It recognises that its meatspace body is human, but its inside body on the astral plane isn’t. We spend most of our time together on the Astral, where we can be ourselves. The astral plane is used by so many otherkin. I’ve been in discord servers with hundreds of people who used it to be themselves. Mostly otherkin and plurals. Some trans people too. The otherkin and trans people who don’t believe in the Astral and can’t use it, their lives are measureably worse. I want to bring magical literacy to everyone so everyone can use the resources that exist for trans and otherkin people. That’s kind of the point of soulism. To let people choose their experience of themselves.
When I was a kid I wanted to be an astronaut. I wanted to meet aliens like in Star Wars. I gave up on that dream when I realised how hard becoming an astronaut is. I wasn’t willing to put in the effort. Especially if we’re not meeting any aliens until we invent warp drive.
But after I joined some fringe queer spaces and started really looking at the limits of our experiences, I realised you don’t need to be an astronaut to experience alien life. You can be an astralnaut instead. People like to say we’re all human, we’re all the same, we’re more similar than we are different. No we aren’t! We are so so different, but you have to be open in order to see it. 8 billion lives is enough for a mindblowing amount of diversity. Enough to blow your mind several times over. And the internet means you can meet them. We can connect and form communities for us weirdos. I don’t understand anyone who doesn’t want to explore the infinite diversity of gender, species, and religion. I just don’t get it. People who want to live in a world where everyone is human, and there are 3 genders and 4 sexualities, I don’t get it. I understand they’re the majority, but why? Why would you want this stuff to be simple when it could be so beautifully wonderful and diverse and complex? “Born too late to explore the earth, born too early to explore the stars”?? I felt that way until I realised I was born just in time to explore queerness. And it’s what I always wanted, to explore and to learn and to grow. There aren’t enough years in a life to explore all the diversity of queerness. But I’m going to have so much fun trying.
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone I was reading some more of that Vox article, and I saw a quote I like. Isabel Fall says
“I have also heard people say, ‘We deserve to know if Isabel Fall is someone with a history of writing things that divide queer communities.’ Is it now a crime to divide a queer community? Why shouldn’t queer people be divided on one issue or another?”
I agree with Isabel. You said Mindtraveller should be banned because they divide the queer community. When they insulted people who misgendered Me, it divided the queer community. And I liked it. Some queer people are bigots. As tolerant queer people, we have a choice. We can either tolerate intolerance, and be united. Or we can fight back against intolerance and be divided. I like the division one better, and so does Isabel Fall. Of course, if bigots just decided to not be bigots and not do lateral violence within the community, I would like that much better. But I can’t control bigots’ actions. I can hopefully appeal to the better judgement of fellow progressives. And hopefully there will be people like Mindtraveller and LinkOpensChest around to yell at the bigots until they go away.
Thank you Ada. I appreciate the work you do here 💜
I fully believe in using a person’s preferred pronouns even if they’re using it in bad faith. The flip side though is that if your identity or pronoun is very uncommon or has stringent rules, you need to accept that people will accidentally get it wrong from time to time. This isn’t unique to pronouns, anything from gender, sexuality, names, politics, religion, occupation, ect. the less common it is the more confusion and explaining.
We need to be accepting of mistakes otherwise we’ll be unwelcoming to newcomers and we’ll fracture the different branches of LGBT over “rules lawyering”.
Finally I feel like I should put in a word about my brief experience with Links. I was very against non voting and we debated in the comments, but we reached a common ground and sympathized about the dire state of everything and our fears about project 2025. We didn’t change each other’s mind but it was a very civil and positive end to what usually becomes a heated argument online. So in my experience I believe Links was not a bad actor and vocally shared the same concerns that the queer community has.
From an admin perspective, I expect misgendering to be corrected by the person who made the mistake once it has been made clear, or otherwise thee post in question might be removed. However, unless it’s a pattern of repeated misgendering that’s the extent of my involvement. Banning someone would take a lot more than slipping up on a pronoun
Finally I feel like I should put in a word about my brief experience with Links. I
Non voters was not run by Links. Links ran LibertyHub. I took zero action again Links.
I know, I just felt the need to express my experience with him since he’s involved. I wanted to show people looking into this that he’s not a bad actor. When it comes to drama good things often go unsaid.
As a spectator with no stake in what happened, except of course wanting people to feel comfortable, I feel like two things were still left unaddressed:
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It looked like the owner of the affected community was driven out by something that almost resembled a witch hunt, with accusations that appeared to be unfounded or even maliciously pushed by people opposing the views or moderation style of the community.
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There was a particular user who stood out to me because they tried to respond to as many posts as possible, seemingly fueling the drama, or at least actively pushing their opinion on everyone. I feel like this is not the appropriate way to interact in such a forum, nor healthy for that individual.
What did the admins do or are planning to do in regards to these concerns?
It looked like the owner of the affected community was driven out by something that almost resembled a witch hunt, with accusations that appeared to be unfounded or even maliciously pushed by people opposing the views or moderation style of the community.
That’s not something I can speak to from an admin perspective. I wasn’t active in the community, and unless it was reported or otherwise brought to my attention, I saw very little of it, so I don’t really have a great sense of Links specific reasons for departing.
What I do know, is that Links left on good terms with me, and expressed thanks for the blahaj community.
There was a particular user who stood out to me because they tried to respond to as many posts as possible, seemingly fueling the drama, or at least actively pushing their opinion on everyone
There were two users at the center of much of the recent drama. One has recently been banned and their communities removed, after it became clear that their goals were divisive and targeted.
I’ve spoken to the other user privately, and addressed some of the issues that arose, and since then, I’ve seen no indication that the problems have re-surfaced.
That’s as much detail as I’m willing to go in to on moderation of individuals.
I’m from lemm.ee (because of its anti-defederation stance; I want the whole firehose of as many Lemmy instances as possible) but I’ve always felt especially comfortable seeing and interacting with content and users from your instance.
And I’m incredibly grateful that you are actually trying to accommodate it/its identities, because I definitely am one. I recognize difficulty in actually asking others to refer to me as such because they’re used to “it” being disrespectful and cruel, or if they’re the kind of person who would call someone an “it” to insult them, I’d be outing myself as the kind of being they don’t want to talk to. But when I see you making an effort… It means the world to me 💜
The friends of mine have gotten used to that aspect of me… Every time they refer to me this way, I feel so… Just … Good? Good! Seen, heard, acknowledged, understood, known. It matters :3
Thank you for running blåhaj zone. It’s my favorite by far. Maybe I might even switch instances, but it’d be more convenient if it didn’t come to that.
edit: is there a donation link? I must be lost in plain sight. I’d like to contribute a little material support…
Edit again: FOUND IT! :DRegarding what I called a “witch hunt”, it seemed like some users quickly jumped on board accusing the previous owner of the libertyhub community of intentionally misgendering a user, when it appeared to be a singular slip up (“you” instead of “You”), that he quickly apologized for and fixed. Maybe there were valid concerns regarding the moderation of that community and it was indeed the right choice for the owner to step down – I am totally missing the context for this – but I felt like there was a large focus on the wrong issue that might’ve driven him away from Lemmy.
To make it as clear as I can, I had nothing to do with Links leaving. I defended the right for his community to have a place on blahaj zone several times in response to requests to remove it. I explicitly stood by his moderation decisions, and as long as his moderation didn’t breach the instance guidelines, he was welcome to moderate in the way he best saw fit. I didn’t take action against his accidental misgendering of another user, because the post was removed even before I saw it, and the misgendering wasn’t a pattern of repeated behaviour. It seemed to me to be a mistake, and one that he later apologised for.
Which is all to say, he had my support, and I didn’t ask him to leave or encourage him to.
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the only good bad actors are those in my theatre group. :3
thank you for the instance i love it here <3
Ada is the best admin I’ve seen on Lemmy so far, keep up the good work.
Lemmy is the only social media I actively interact with because of the unwavering support from Ada and Kaity to make this a safe space for all trans and queer people. I really feel at home here.
Beep boop, thanks for the work you do for the community.
This is definitely the instance for me. Thank you Ada!!
Hell yeah, keep up the good work. Love this community
