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I’m cool with that, but folks should also remember this:
yeah I’m forever voting blue no matter who. The republican candidate will always be a fascist. It will never end with Trump. It’s going to be fascist vs not fascist blue vote and I will eat whatever shit the blue vote shits out. More cops? I’m all for it, not a fascist dictator. Support Israel? Fine with me, not a fascist dictator. It sucks but that’s just America now for the next thousand or so years, fascism or something else. Better hope the something else isn’t closer to fascism than before or else you’re fucked.
You acknowledge that you’re voting for a slightly slower descent into fascism but that you’ll continue to do so?
As opposed to a faster descent? Yes absolutely.
So your solution to avoiding fascism is to never lose an election?
My solution is to exercise my right to vote.
Yes, by all means, exercise your right to vote as you see fit. But if the only way we can avoid fascism is by never losing an election, shouldn’t we be seeking better ideas and stronger protections from fascism now before that plan fails?
If you don’t vote you’re not a part of the conversation. You obviously don’t have any grasp on how the election process works anyways, so why are you even keyboard warrioring this at all?
Go back to playing music, Jesse.
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You have a good point. Obviously we should vote for it to happen faster rather than try to use the slow descent to fix things.
I wonder how many accelerationists around here are fascists/explodingheads users. Fascists don’t fear the prospect of pretending to be something they aren’t if it means furthering their agenda.
They’re not afraid of posing as, say, a disenfranchised, discouraged and disillusioned left-winger who believes both sides are bad and there’s no future except revolution.
They’re not afraid to post about how “Genocide Joe” is funding genocide in Gaza while neglecting to point out how “Totalitarian Trump” would send B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza and the West Bank until nothing is left.
They’re not afraid to point out how red states are still succeeding in trampling over LGBT rights under Biden while also ignoring how Trump would almost certainly push for that nation-wide.
They’ll cry about our current supreme court justices while ignoring that Trump was the one who put those justices in power to begin with.
To be clear, I think the US is pretty far from saving and that it’ll take a miracle to save this country from ruin. However, I’d rather see the country collapse slowly and in a relatively controlled manner that gives people time to prepare for its demise; while also giving people time to attempt to patch and fix the holes.
Revolution is high risk, high reward; if the left-wing wins, then you might get the socialist utopia you’ve always dreamed of. However, what if the right-wing wins? Yanno, the people with the majority of privately owned guns in the US. What if they win?
A Trump presidency means your leftist revolution against a fascist government will almost certainly be opposed by both rednecks and the US military.
However, if the fascists revolt during a Biden presidency, then the military will likely be backing you.
In the event of armed revolution, the president, whether it’s Biden or Trump, will use the military to protect and reinforce their power. With Trump, opposition to his power will be coming from the left, so that’s who the military will target. With Biden, the opposition will come from the right, and so the military will target them instead.
Of course, that doesn’t mean you’ll get the leftist utopia you’ve always dreamed, but at least you’ll remove a lot of fascists from the equation. Removing those fascists means it’ll be easier for the country to swing to the left and stay there. It won’t happen overnight, but the result would likely be a government far more stable than if you tried to burn everything down and start over from scratch.
The reason why I say all this is because I feel that we are closing in on a revolution. Something is about to snap, and it will happen either during the elections or soon after. As such, you really, really don’t want Trump, because Trump means you’ll be fighting against the biggest, most well-funded and technologically equipped military in the world.
The air is tense and electric, filled with gasoline fumes and heated by our exhaust. The masses are shuffling to and from their workplaces, burned-out and overworked. They are struggling to afford rent, afford food, afford sleep and water. Static electricity is building on their shuffling bodies, and soon a spark will leap from an outstretched finger, igniting the air and bathing the US in fire.
I hope I’m wrong.
I agree. Although I’m not as pessimistic as you are, I truly believe that the US can become a socialist country, I’m young though 😅
I hadn’t considered some right wing bigots would be on here and was arguing with ppl. Thx! :)
Yeah, I’ll admit that I’m pretty jaded and cynical when it comes to politics and the future of humanity. I’m not all that old either, but I’m old enough to remember how it seemed like life was getting better until Trump took office, and how much the US tumbled as a result.
I’m old enough to remember when being left or right wing was a debate and not a fight between competing “truths”; and how the US left and right wing were sometimes willing to compromise on issues instead of fighting a culture war where they try and see how badly they can fuck up the US and still successfully blame the other party.
I’m old enough to remember when people typically trusted the news and science; and conspiracy theorists were amusing nutjobs at best, harmless annoyances at worst.
I’m old enough to remember when the idea of a Christian theocracy in the US was considered insane by anyone except the most extreme conservatives; while militias were something only domestic terrorists and the most extreme political radicals supported.
And I’m honestly, not that old. I just… I’ve watched the downward spiral and it seems like no one in power actually wants to stop it, which is why I’ve become so jaded and cynical. It’s why I think revolution is coming, and I’m just hoping that the political ideology I’m aligned with won’t be forced into fighting a losing war against the US military.
That’s why I think people should support Biden. No, he’s not a good person, and I don’t think he honestly has the best interests of America and the rest of the world in mind. Sure, he’s tried to do some good things like (unsuccessfully) forgiving student loans multiple times and showing support for America’s unions, however he’s still enabling Israel’s genocide and he’s still beholden to the corporations that fund his party (which means he’ll avoid real changes whenever possible). Yet, if Biden gets elected and the American right-wing revolts (I’m convinced they’ll try), then the US military will be fighting them, not us. If Trump gets elected then there may not even be a chance for revolution before cops start kicking people’s doors down.
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You know what is definitely not fixing it? Reassuring the Dems at every step that they will have your vote no matter what, as long as they are only slightly better than the Reps. Actually it is directly encouraging them to be at their possible worst.
Think of politicians as children and you as their parent. Do you think “reaffirm your child that no matter what it does, it will always get its favorite dessert” is a good parenting strategy? You raise egocentric psychopaths this way and this is exactly what you are getting as politicians.
That’s what the primary is for.
If you have a dem that no longer aligns with your interests, you vote them out during the primary.
But then you show up during the general, hold your nose, and vote Democrat.
Want to know why?
Because the Republicans will vote Republican no matter what and we’ve unfortunately pushed our democracy to the point where we either vote for the somewhat okay guy or the guy that will bite your face off.
Yes, the dnc money machine is definitely allowing that. /s
I’m not noticing any part of “I’ll accept anything” that’s particularly conducive to fixing things
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And 5 month ago it was double that time and people already screamed that pointing out that an alternative to two genocidal geriatrics is needed were screamed down as being Trump puppets.
We already wasted half of that time to find a solution with people being vigorously opposed to demanding a solution as they are afraid to lose the status quo.
Cmon dude, we can read your history.
People are not calling you a Trump puppet because you criticise Biden. People are arguing with you because you think not voting is a solution that Democrats are actually affected by.
By not voting, you just ensure the person you want the least to be in office wins (Trump). There’s plenty of shills trying to discourage people from voting with that rhetoric. Republicans only win when dems don’t show up.
The political cycle is not 10 months long. Or 24. Or 48.
If you want change, you need to be involved in pushing over a large number of heavy objects over a long period of time. No one candidate, no one election, is going to change anything.
Because your damn country isn’t “descending into fascism”, it’s been bathing in it for centuries, and every time there’s someone trying to lift y’all kicking and screaming out of it just a little bit, the totalitarians crop up to try and self-destruct it all. Then, suddenly, a bunch of you come out of the woodwork to declare that it’s better to blow it all up, actually, than to do literally anything to stop it, because you believe there should be a quick and easy solution, and everyone else around you is just an idiot for not seeing it.
But you only believe that because you’re some kind of self-important, hubris-huffing sucker.
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Hear me out…
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Invent time machine
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The candidate I want most gets elected.
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I would agree with you, but who’s working on fixing things? It’s looking close this time, and the historical pattern is that the Presidency flips parties when an incumbent can’t run. What’s the plan so we can ensure that a GQP authoritarian doesn’t win in 2028? This was the talking point in 2020, and very little happened; Biden’s AG even waited almost 3 years to appoint a special counsel, only after being buffaloed into it by the House January 6th committee, virtually ensuring that there trial will be delayed until after the election. And there’s still no action whatsoever to hold Bush administration officials accountable.
The plan is delay fascism while building networks for a communist revolution.
Or just GTFO of the country if you’re queer/nonwhite/disabled, and buy as much time as possible for the refugees to escape.
I’ve asked the question “what’s the plan to stop fascism in 2028?” several times now, with no other response, so I guess the answer is, “pull off a communist revolution in just 4 years.”
You’re just an accelerationist. Fatalism, nihilism, apathy, hopeless, etc aren’t anything new, most of us disagree with you. I wonder if your outlook would improve if you got therapy or if you had a little skin in the game and stood to lose something.
If they were an accelerationist, wouldn’t they be voting for Trump?
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Not necessarily.
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Who says they aren’t?
Not necessarily
Why not? You’re claiming they’re operating on a principle of trying to accelerate collapse, and that Trump is the candidate to do that. But this is completely inconsistent with what the person is saying they’ll do. It doesn’t explain their behavior.
Who says they aren’t?
So we’re just making things up whole cloth about people now?
It’s cute of you to step in to defend your alt account, but you can’t be serious.
They’re an accelerationist, for whatever reason, they want collapse. The quicker it happens the better, they admitted as much above.
You’re supposing that Trump is the candidate to do that, I think most of lemmy would agree with you so I’ll cede that point.
That point ceded, we can agree most of lemmy won’t vote for Trump right? So what would be the point of talking about voting Trump here? It’s far more effective for the accelerationist (who likely isn’t conservative anyway) to be a “leftist” who’s so disgusted with how corrupt and unfair the system is they simply just check out and encourage others to check out as well, “both sides are the same” of course.
So we’re just making things up whole cloth about people now?
We’re inferring things, it’s quite a bit different comrade.
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Yes the point of my comment was that I want fascism faster well done
The little bit you have actually said has indicated that and you have done absolutely nothing to refute it so my advice is that sarcasm only works when the targeted recipient of it has been shown you would only say it sarcastically.
In what world would any person make that argument ?
It’s more than yes/no to fascism.
In a democratic political party you can influence the politics democratically. In a fascist party: Not possible.
The country does not need to hit rock bottom before it can improve. It can be changed democratically from within if you allow it to by voting for anything but the party that will take away that possibility.
Why would the democratic party listen to anything you have to say if they know you’ll vote for them regardless?
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Clinton lost 2016 in part because people were unhappy with her over Sanders
You need to go take a civics class and stop trying to suppress the leftwing vote. Do you expect anyone to sit down and explain to you how campaigning for issues works? Do you expect us to list every decent win “the left” has gotten the last 5-10 years?
What have you gotten accomplished? What have you even participated in?
Just because you sit in a basement unplugged from reality, doomscrolling, doesn’t mean the rest of should sit here and take advice from you. You admit you just want fascism faster.
Bad-faith, accelerationist, useful idiot. If it weren’t so cliche I’d call you Vlad.
That was a lot of words to not even attempt to answer a very simple question
Bad-faith, accelerationist
I like the self awareness displayed by calling me bad faith and then immediately reiterating the thing you just made up about me and decided was true based on what seems to be a deliberately bad interpretation of my original comment.
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Because of primaries
How do you think a political party comes up with ideas in the first place?
Assuming you’re not voting…
Do you acknowledge that you’re voting for a coin toss between a slower descent or a faster descent into fascism? Averaging out to you being in favor of an even faster descent into fascism than the person you replied to?
That’s not what not voting is, no
Do you acknowledge that voting for a candidate enacting bad policies is voting for those bad policies
Yes but not voting for that candidate is effectively just like voting for the other even worse guy.
I mean we both know that Biden ain’t great, but Trump? Trump is far fuckXng worse! Don’t like the genocide ? Biden is wayyyyyy more likely to sign a ceasefire than Trump. Want Trans Rights? Biden doesn’t care, Trump wants to remove them. I’d rather have Biden’s apathy than Trump’s hate.
There is a Contrapoints video abt this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Vah8sUFgI
You know what would force Biden to provide actually decent politics? If people demanded them and withhold their vote otherwise. And you know who would rather want Trump to win, than provide adequate protection of human rights, including Trans rights? Joe Biden, the guy you want to vote for. The DNC and him are laughing their asses off together with the Reps that no matter what, you will keep letting them get away with it.
So you’re willing to risk letting Trump win AGAIN just so you can own Biden? Like honey no… watch the video it explains it much better than I do.
Contrapoints didn’t make that video in the context of a genocide.
So what do you suppose we do? Start a revolution against the biggest military on earth? I believe America needs to stop having a two party system, this way there is more chance someone like Bernie gets elected. But alas who will vote for them…
Tell Biden to either stop the bullshit or not get your vote and mean it, for instance by backing it up with demonstrations.
And then?
I already said this somewhere else but please vote, not voting for Biden is essentially like voting for Trump. And once Biden is in you can be as mad as you want against him, protest and shit, because Biden might actually listen, Trump would never.
No, it’s not “essentially like voting for Trump”. It’s voting for the person you voted for. What is the fundamental difference between voting for Biden and voting for a different candidate in the event of a Trump victory? There is none. Do not shame the voters. Shame the politicians into acting in a way deserving of leadership.
because Biden might actually listen,
Why would he listen if he knows he can have your vote regardless
So what if voting blue will end up with innocent people dying? Their sacrifice for my freedom will not go without honor. I will enshrine their lives with a statue commemorating their bravery in the fight for my freedom. The lives of innocent trans people, black people, and Palestinian children is a steep cost but it’s one I’m willing to spend for me to go to Starbucks and get a latte for $9. Who’s to say my life is worth more than theirs? Well Joe Biden made that determination for us, so I believe that’s right! I’m glad it’s a bunch of random black and brown people getting blown to bits for my right to vote, not me!
Consider that endorsing an awful candidate in Biden will help get Trump elected.
Not voting for Biden is the same thing as voting for Trump.
Voting for Biden doesn’t mean supporting him. It means preventing Trump from becoming president.
The vote I cast in 2020 was against trump and not for Biden. I feel pretty good about that decision considering what happened afterwards. I’ll vote against Trump again as many times as it takes.
You mean you threw your ballot in the trash?
They clearly said they voted Biden. Biden won.
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They meant that they begrudgingly voted for Biden, but it was too vote against Trump.
You misread it. It was pretty clear, but you managed it.
As the other person said. I think you misread it.
I really hope you’re not able to vote in this election if you can’t even parse this dead simple thought process.
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This precise sentiment has gotten me told off a few times now. Usually with someone yelling the word “Genocide” over and over so I can’t get a word in. People are so fucking dumb it’s actually unbelievable.
Whatever my frustration, I just want us all to work together even after we get Biden a second term. The only reason, ONLY REASON, the GOP have their power is honestly because we can’t stop slap fighting long enough to plant a foot in their asses. This would also work for the Democrats. We do have two feet. Whatever our perspectives and opinions, there is a single neigh universal truth we can all accept:
This life sure could be a lot better.
Exactly. This is what I cannot understand from all these “true hyper-leftist” people. You do realize that the future of the USA is at stake here, and that our system is fundamentally rigged to not allow any real alternative as a choice, right? Your brain-dead “BIDEN BAD VOTE THIRD PARTY” is just going to enable Trump and then you’ll never be able to vote for anyone ever again as you are forced to participate in alt-right Trump rallies every single day and post on the Trumpernet about how much you love Trump. This isn’t much of an exaggeration – this where they want to go if Trump wins.
You’re not supporting Biden. This isn’t how our vote works. You’re voting for the person less likely to fundamentally fuck our country up. And in case you still don’t quite understand who this is, that is Biden.
The largest current of leftists aren’t saying you cannot vote for Biden, and that you should vote third party, but that ultimately change comes from outside the electoral system.
Unfortunately unless a revolution falls into our laps and magically solves all our problems, the modicum of control we have over the steering of this ship is limited to voting and advocating for others to vote
Revolution isn’t magical, it’s the boiling point for society as material conditions decay. It may seem impossible when you’re living in it, but eventually the material conditions will reach a point where revolution will occur.
This is painfully obvious for those who have read and agree with Marx’s analysis of Capitalism. A quick into text is Wage Labor and Capital. Capitalism is fundamentally unsustainable and cannot continue to exist forever. International Imperialism has made this last far longer, but society develops alongside technology, and eventually the global south will throw off the global north.
Therefore, whether you are an Anarchist, or Marxist, it remains important not to simply wait for a Revolution, but to build up parallel structures, parties, groups, organizations of mutual aid, and so forth, to help guide along the revolutionary movement and gain trust in existing leftist structures. Unionization is huge for this as well.
Voting is good, sure, but will never bring about positive change, merely delay decay.
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Can we safely encourage Republicans to vote 3rd party?
Yes.
They’ll never accept that, because they fundamentally see nothing wrong with the system. They want to preserve the broken machine, even if it doesn’t work for them. They think changing the oil will repair it, when it was designed to break.
More like we don’t want to crash our only car when we don’t have another means of transportation, and oops, now we can’t get to work.
It’s great to say “the system is broken and must be replaced.” I agree! But nobody who says that, me included, has ever had anything resembling an actual plan to replace the system or to prevent something even worse from taking over once the system is destroyed.
Everyone gave the GOP shit for screaming about how Obamacare needs to be “repealed and replaced” but never saying what it should be replaced with (though that was because the “replace” part was a lie and they just wanted to go back to the bad old days of people being trapped in a job or entirely unable to get insurance because of a preexisting condition). It’s the same thing with people saying the entire system of government needs to be replaced.
But nobody who says that, me included, has ever had anything resembling an actual plan to replace the system
There are numerous other models of government being practiced all over the world. Choose one of them (I would recommend Swiss democracy).
It’s all well and good to say “choose another system of governance” but how do we implement this change? What is the mechanism under which we can replace our current system of government with Swiss democracy, without the old government just saying “lolno” and bombing it to shit? The only method I can think of is a constitutional convention, and right now we’re closer to the right wing being able to call one and rewrite it to take pur rights back 200 years than we are to leftists implementing Swiss democracy.
Like… I would be thrilled if that were within the realm of possibility, but as it stands any possible options for dramatically overhauling our system of governance is more likely to lurch us straight into permanent hard-right minority rule by a bunch of fascists. That’s what I mean when I say I’ve never seen an actual plan by leftists to overhaul the system–it’s all arguing about what the sexy end goal should be, without bothering to talk about the boring minutiae of how to actually get to it. So far as I can tell, the “plan” to make all these needed changes, so far as any thought is put into it at all, is just a silent assumption of either “we lobby our politicians and they do what we tell them and nobody opposes our ideas” or “we do a violent revolution and kill all the bad guys without harming the good guys and we definitely win and accomplish our goal without someone else taking advantage of the chaos to do a fascism instead,” depending on how radical the change is.
how do we implement this change?
Constitutional amendments
without the old government just saying “lolno” and bombing it to shit?
Make sure the old government doesn’t have enough votes.
options for dramatically overhauling our system of governance is more likely to lurch us straight into permanent hard-right minority rule by a bunch of fascists.
Agreed, but it doesn’t have to be like that.
They think changing the oil will repair it, when it was designed to break.
That’s what I said.
Not the point. Trump needs to be defeated, and the way we’re going to do that is voting for Biden. There’s no other way. It’s not going to happen. You are absolutely deluded if you think there is another way.
After we fend off the Trump bullshit, then, yes, we have to make actual change to push us much further left. I don’t get how all the ultra-leftists cannot fathom this simple fact.
After we fend off the Trump bullshit, then, yes, we have to make actual change to push us much further left.
That was the lie in 2020 and it didn’t fucking happen. Now Biden is supporting genocide and we still gotta vote for him.
Because Trump is still a fucking threat, you assclown. His cronies are still in office. We are going to have to keep fighting this fight where it needs to be fought, then when that fight is done, THEN we push to the actual left. Is this so goddamn fucking hard for you “LOL DONT VOTE BIDEN SO TRUMP CAN BE PRESIDENT AGAIN” fucktwaddlers to understand?
I’m not American dawg. I hate biden as much as I want. Let me hate.
Nah, everyone is free to hate. However, support from others on this planet against Trump is also important. To some degree we all affect one another and his rise into the seat again would directly impact a LOT of people, even outside the U.S.
BUT
I’m hoping that there is now enough anger and frustration for us to carry the momentum past the voting gates and straight into very strong pressure towards all politicians. This IS fixable. The message is there, even if it will result in violence from our militarized police force.
This is ignorant fear mongering. If thats the way the system works as you say? Then its our duty as citizens to destroy the system entirely. If thats America then this is not a democracy and its certainly not a democracy worthy of being preserved. IF that is the system you claim Joe biden stands to preserve? Then we SHOULD let trump come in and tear the whole thing down.
I think trump is a fundamentally morally detestable character. Butt iv lived thru 1 trump presidency. Hes backwards, hes an ass. Hes not a good leader. But hes not the end of everything as we know it. And I’m not giving more power to a corrupt party of beaurocrats who continue to lie to my fucking face while selling me out to corporate interests behind my back and completely hollowing out our countries economic capability all the while refusing to make good on any of their promises and funneling all my tax money to foreign wars while we bleed for healthcare. Fuck this countries “democracy” the fact you even believe we live in a democracy is hilarious. Congress has a 14% approval rating. Our representatives do not represent the will of the america people. They represent the will of their largest financial donors.
If you think that’s fear mongering then you clearly haven’t been paying attention for the past 8 years.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m trying to parse what is actual “things that can / will happen under a Trump presidency” vs “what the democrats and liberal media want us to think can / will happen under a Trump presidency”. I’m likely voting Biden simply because I saw what a shitshow the Supreme Court became (and will be for quite some time) under a Trump presidency. But I also notice Biden did fuck all about it so part of me wonders if the democrats are doing nothing for the simple fact that they have a fearmongering device setting the up for the next election. I mean, honestly the state of politics in the US is just pathetic.
I feel the frustration, and agree with it. But the choice you’re describing does not exist. The options aren’t “fucked up status quo” with Biden and “start over fresh” with Trump, though. The options are “fucked up status quo” with Biden and “way fucking worse corporatism, inequality, treatment of any marginalized/minority group, personal freedoms, bodily autonomy, religious liberty, foreign relations, healthcare, education, environment… oh and let’s just completely give up the little voice we have” with Trump.
All the stuff that pisses you off about the corrupt bureaucrats in the Democratic Party exists across the board in the Republican Party, but worse.
I could see somebody voting for Trump hoping that the world ends more quickly and rebuilds so that their great-grandkids, if they exist/survive, might live in a better system. But the price for placing that unlocke unlikely bet is to fuck up the system now and in the near future, negatively affecting tens of millions to billions of actual people.
Ignorant? Look up Project 2025. Then tell me I’m exaggerating. You are either laughably ignorant about our situation, or you’re a Trumper trying to convince people that everything will be fine when it will absolutely not be.
Vote blue in 2024, then push better agendas and vote true left next time. Because I can guarantee you if Trump wins, you won’t be voting any more.
I never liked Biden since the Obama years and I now hate him quite a bit. Sadly voting for him at this point is simply necessary, because if I am not in a good enough state to survive then I cannot support the Palestinians nor Ukrainians.
I don’t get this attitude. Obama was literally against gay marriage. Biden’s policies have been so much more progressive than Obama’s and yet nobody I know likes him more. I’m not a “fan” of Biden but that’s because it’s weird and creepy to be a “fan” of government officials. He does a lot I don’t like but if you literally hate Biden I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Obama was literally against gay marriage.
That’s just one more reason I didn’t like him.
Biden’s policies have been so much more progressive
He was a slightly better politician than Clinton so I didn’t hate him, now he’s still supporting Israel thus my aversion.
it’s weird and creepy to be a “fan” of government officials.
Tell that to all the people going to all the politicians rallies.
I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Bernie.
I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Contentment does not produce change.
By that logic, not voting for Trump is the same as voting for Biden.
Do you understand that words have meaning? You are using words but at making zero sense.
it seems quite straightforward really. What are you having issues making sense?
Just stop being obtuse. You know that not voting for Biden is not the same as voting for Trump.
Oh, so you understood, you were just being obtuse. And now wrong.
Not voting doesn’t mean you support Trump.
Oh look aren’t declarative statements fun! Let’s do the color of the sky next!
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You have chosen…brain worm.
The meme does not mention voting. Why do centrists always make the leap from “dislike Biden” to “not vote” or “vote third party”?
Nother reminder: not voting for biden isvoting for trump regardless if you support either of them
Well I’m not voting for Trump so I guess, by your logic, that means I’m voting for Biden. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Asserting this is obtusely ignoring the context that conservative voters have no qualms about voting for someone grossly immoral.
There aren’t conservatives out there saying “Yeah well I was gonna vote for Trump but he supports genociding Palestinians”.
The fact that conservatives don’t have this problem and everyone else does means that, yes, you are enabling Trump by not voting Biden. The “logic” necessarily does not work the other way around, even if you say it like some sort of clever gotcha with a complex emoji.
“Nooo you don’t understand I’m definitely going to defeat fascism by doing absolutely nothing ever. You just don’t understand the benefits of political apathy”
Something something accelerationism… surely if we let the fascists win now then they’ll let us win later!
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Why indeed? The fact is that not enough people vote for third parties for it to matter by an order of magnitude.
Conservatives don’t vote third party. When we do, we split our own vote in the face of a party that has their base on lock.
Because that logic is abundantly obvious, people don’t vote third party enough to make a difference. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. And it’s so effective at actually splitting the vote that both parties have attempted running spoiler candidates in the past to do just that.
Why doesnt everyone just vote third party? Because enough people who could are afraid that it will mean degrading democracy by handing over the reigns if it doesn’t work, thereby creating the very problem that they are afraid of.
One day y’all will get the point that this entire ideology is in and of itself fascist.
“We aren’t fascist we just stripped you of all other choices and move the goalposts anytime someone gets close to inclusion then blame you for wanting another option while shrieking that only WE can save the country but also we won’t save it either cause we haven’t had a platform other than ‘slightly less right’ for over a decade or two now.”
One day you will get the point that the reality is that we as voters don’t make the rules.
Yeah, you’re right. We’re boxed into this shitty ass system. Grandstanding about how shitty it is doesn’t magically create a solution.
We vote for the least worst option and try to make progress towards a better situation in the future. It’s either that or we fall to actual fascists who would rather take the vote away.
“Actual fascists”
We already have “actual fascists.” Reread your comment, even by YALLS OWN EXPLANATION, our vote was taken away long before we were born. Nothing but performative bullshit so you can claim to be the “good guy” as we’re further and further clamped down on.
What you actually mean by “take the vote away” is “take your status quo” away. Biden and dems have been pushing legislation to take away all the hassle of nuking leftist organizations and to make ANY criticism of Israel something that let’s them strip a school of funding and accreditation if they allow it - but y’all don’t mind any of that “actual fascism” because it doesn’t affect your personal day to day life.
You can fly your pride flags all you want but you’re throwing Palestinians under the bus to protect your warmongering corporatist status quo, y’all are starting to throw trans people under the bus to protect it, and when the time comes you’ll do the same to gays and POC all while screaming about the “lesser of two evils.”
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Only one explicitly right wing 3rd party was even an option in 2020, and Jorgensen ran libertarian, which is an ideology conservatives as a whole tend to reject. As evidenced by the ~1% of the vote she got.
this isn’t true
Are you sure about that?
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Then how the hell did Trump win in 2016 and nearly win in 2020? He is literally antithetical to everything conservatives say they are, yet they still fucking turned out and voted for him instead of someone else.
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This is the stupidest thing I’ve read today.
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They’re almost certainly a bot. Report them.
Vote splitting is not a myth. It’s just math. Let me explain with an example:
1000 people at a conference are deciding where to order catering and hold a vote:
- 490 people want Mexican and do not want Asian
- 510 people want Asian:
- 480 people want Vietnamese, would be satisfied with Thai, and do not want Mexican
- 30 people want Thai, would be satisfied with Vietnamese, and do not want Mexican
The restaurants on the ballot are:
- A Mexican restaurant,
- A Vietnamese restaurant, and
- A Thai restaurant.
If the people who want Asian recognize the strength of their combined numbers, then they can tip the scales by all voting for the favorite between Vietnamese and Thai. In this situation, we get 490 votes Mexican, 510 votes Vietnamese, and 0 votes Thai. This time Vietnamese wins and the majority of people, the 510 who prefer Asian, are either happy or satisfied with the result while only 490 are disappointed.
If everyone votes for their favorite, then we get 490 votes Mexican, 480 votes Vietnamese, and 30 votes Thai. In this case, Mexican wins and the majority of people, the 510 who prefer Asian, are left disappointed while only 490 people are happy with the result. The vote has been split and the result is that the entire conference is worse off for it.
By the way, the ratio of 480 Vietnamese to 30 Thai is irrelevant as long as neither value is 0. That ratio can be fixed to any positive value and a situation can be described in which vote splitting occurs with that specific ratio of Vietnamese supporters to Thai supporters. That’s why vote splitting isn’t too uncommon - any number of people voting Thai has the potential to split the vote. The one caveat is if literally every Vietnamese supporter decides to vote Thai as well; in that scenario, no vote splitting can occur. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen in practice because it’s easier to convert the Thai supporters who are smaller in number than it is to convert the Vietnamese supporters who have greater numbers.
If you want examples from history, there are plenty. Our electoral college amplifies the effect since it breaks one federal election down into a large number of state elections, any of which can exhibit vote splitting. Other people have linked to them in this discussion and you can find more elsewhere online.
Trump is leading the polls.
so if you currently think “im not gonna vote”, then you’re giving trump a head start
A majority of the non-voters are more likely to vote for the democrats. thats also why the republicans are making it as difficult as possible to vote. coz they know, the more who vote, the less likely they are at winning
Were you predisposed to vote for Trump? Then yes.
We can’t get through to these idiots. They are the fools that use literally to mean figuratively.
No one here WANTS to vote for Biden, but it’s literally the only way to make sure Trump isn’t president, unless you want to go ahead and change the national bipartisan system by November.
Another genocide supporter. Got it.
Sure, but if you can and don’t vote for Biden it means you’re at least ok with Trump.
No, it means I’m not ok with genocide but you are.
You have two options:
- Ok with genocide. Otherwise relatively progressive. Has passed major important legislation.
- Ok with genocide. Wants to be a dictator. Appointed half of the Supreme Court majority that took away women’s right to abortion. Will probably strip more rights if elected. Cut taxes on the wealthy and will probably do it again.
You can throw away your vote, but come inauguration, you will have a president who is ok with genocide.
But I will not have voted for one of them. But you will have and the blood will be on your hands.
You have an abysmally stupid sense of morality.
I think some of these people have to be trolls. We’re basically in the trolley problem where the trolley is headed for 100,000 people, and if you pull the lever it will only kill 1. You can’t abstain from pulling the lever and act like you’re completely innocent of the deaths of the masses.
the trolley problem tests you ethical framework, it does not have a prescribed solution. your answer to it helps you understand your own approach. deontologists never pull the lever.
That’s an awful lot of trolls.
If you truly oppose genocide. You should be plotting a coup against the US executive branch.
We don’t know they aren’t.
How is being against a genocide immoral?
If your morality prioritizes staunch adherence to standards over harm reduction, you have a stupid sense of morality.
It’s the kind of morality where someone would rather let a child die than push them out of the way of a speeding car, simply because pushing them would harm them.
Your morality should lead you to making decisions that result in the least harm. Look at it this way: if all of the people who voted third party instead of Hillary because Hillary wasn’t [insert moral standard here] enough had sucked it up and voted for Hillary, access to abortion would still be legal nationwide. (This assumes enough people to get her elected voted third party over moral objections.)
Trump is the worst president in my life time, by a huge margin, and he’s even more in favor of genocide than Biden, demonstrably. So if your sense of morality causes you to help put him in charge of our country again, in my mind, you’re a fucking moron.
Rebellion? I don’t like hearing such a word from you," Ivan said with feeling. “One cannot live by rebellion, and I want to live. Tell me straight out, I call on you–answer me: imagine that you yourself are building the edifice of human destiny with the object of making people happy in the finale, of giving them peace and rest at last, but for that you must inevitably and unavoidably torture just one tiny creature, that same child who was beating her chest with her little fist, and raise your edifice on the foundation of her unrequited tears–would you agree to be the architect on such conditions? Tell me the truth.”
“No, I would not agree,” Alyosha said softly.
“And can you admit the idea that the people for whom you are building would agree to accept their happiness on the unjustified blood of a tortured child, and having accepted it, to remain forever happy?”
"No, I cannot admit it.Fyodor Dostoyevsky — The Brothers Karamazov
voting isn’t harm reduction
I’ve asked folks who aren’t voting for Biden what they think the odds of their vote reducing genocide in the real world is, and all I’ve gotten is crickets.
Given that there doesn’t seem to be much confidence there, the real world results are likely trump or biden.
Trump has folks in his party alluding to nukes when saying Palestine has to be ended quickly, even trump himself has stated that Israel has to end the war quickly. Therefore I suggest that Trump will result in far more lives lost than Biden.
Folks on Lemmy are typically left-leaning.
This means that a Lemmy user voting third party could’ve been a vote for Biden, which in a binary choice results in less lives lost. Yes, I know, Biden centrist, etc etc, but he’s to the left of the absolute insanity that is the republican party.
However instead some folks value a clean conscience over real world results, and vote third party/abstain. If these votes would’ve otherwise gone to Biden, then they have made a trump presidency more likely, which has the real world effect of resulting in more lives lost.
I’m fine with people voting with their conscience, but I just want folks to acknowledge whether or not their vote makes a trump presidency (therefore more genocide) more likely. Most people just seem to think “I’m not voting for genocide so my hands are clean and I’m good!” and stick their head in the sand.
So, you’re okay with not having a clean conscience? Or, other voters should be okay with not having a clear conscience? If Biden winning is more important to you than having a clean conscience. Vote for him. But don’t pressure people that choose to have a clear conscience.
Unless thought police is on your bucket list.
a Lemmy user voting third party could’ve been a vote for Biden,
if he wanted to earn it
Voting third party right now also just perpetuates both parties. There are enough people in this country to elect anyone from the major parties, so a third party can’t win unless one of those parties collapses. The only way a party collapses is when it consistently loses elections.
The republicans won’t consistently lose elections as long as progressives don’t vote for democrats, so both parties will continue on. The majority of the people in this country are left of center, so the only way republicans win is by suppressing votes, and one of the ways they do that is by propping up progressive third party candidates.
If we truly want a progressive party, making sure republicans never win elections is the way to do it. Then either the Democratic Party will shift left and republicans will regroup under a new less extreme conservative party, or the Democratic Party will shift right as it absorbs all the republicans and a new progressive left party will rise. Both ways result in a more progressive set of major parties.
But then if Trump wins because you didn’t vote for either, then you’re ok with Genocide+ rather than Genocide light. Meaning you have to vote for the lesser of the two evils if no matter what you do the majority are voting for the only two who are likely to win.
You’re either incredibly stupid, a troll, or are being obstinate on purpose.
Genocide light? Seriously?!? If the other guy is stupid, you are stupid+
There is no democracy if you are supporting genocide. There is no election worth voting on if the outcome is same fucking fascist, just with different colored flags. And don’t give me the lie how you’re gonna do something about a ‘genocide light’ if your guy is elected. Fuck off
This whole country needs to stop sucking Kissinger’s dick and change this bloodthirsty, greedy fascist system.
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Ask the people in Gaza what they think about “Roe got overturned”.
After all said and nothing done, we are paying for those bullets that murder their children by accepting and even promoting a system that gives us braindead mouthpieces for weapon manufacturers to vote for.
Or republican politicans calling to end Palestine “as if” we nuked it.
Small problem. A person who is against genocide would not be okay with a genocide under Trump either, so why should they be okay with a genocide under Biden?
Did you even read anything I wrote.
The outcome of the election is going to be Trump or Biden. NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO WIN.
So given that you have to choose the person less likely to escalate the situation, the saner one of the two.
I’m not saying it’s good I think it’s fucking abhorrent, but there is no choice.
To be abundantly clear about my stance on Palestine. I am out every weekend protesting in solidarity with Palestine. I am spreading awareness of the issue wherever I can and I am taking direct action against the companies that support the genocide.
Let me ask you this. What do you think is going to happen if you don’t vote?
If a genocide is going to occur regardless of the vote, then the vote doesn’t matter.
Let me ask you this. What do you think is going to happen if you don’t vote?
In regards to what? The genocide? Project 2025? Healthcare?
If people want to vote for Joe Biden to preserve LGBT and minority rights, that’s their choice. If someone wants to not vote for Biden because he is aiding in a genocide, that’s their choice.
It’s egotistical to think that my priorities are more important than others.
So… What do you think are the odds that your third party vote improves the situation in Palestine?
If your third party vote makes it more likely that Trump wins and results in more bloodshed, that is a choice you contributed to, and blood is still on your hands.
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virtue-signalling : the act or practice of conspicuously displaying one’s awareness of and attentiveness to political issues, matters of social and racial justice, etc., especially instead of taking effective action
The argument for voting against left-wing or socialist candidates on the grounds that they can’t win and are therefore helping the right wing into power has, of course, been a time-worn argument in the United States against bucking the two-party system. Engels, in an 1893 letter to an American colleague, pointed out that in the United States, the formation of a workers’ party is hindered by the “Constitution…which makes it appear as though every vote were lost that is cast for a candidate not put up by one of the two governing parties.” isreview
If you don’t vote against fascism, you allowed fascism.
Not voting is a vote for Trump.
That’s not logical. So, if my choices are pizza or nuggies, and I choose neither. Then I chose nuggies? Make it make sense.
I may be intermittent fasting to lose weight, or rejecting imperialist capitalism.
A few things; Republicans haven’t won the popular vote in over 20 years, a rural (republican) vote is objectively worth more than most democrat votes
How many republicans do you think are not voting? Probably much fewer than leftists (democrat votes)
You ARE getting Pizza or Nuggies, you can vote for either, but you are still getting Nuggies or Pizza for dinner, in this case Nuggies is more likely, because, as mentioned before, people voting for Nuggies typically have a vote that’s worth more than those who usually vote for Pizza
This is a make-or-break moment – we must pressure the Democrats to change their position on Gaza before the elections in November. While we should all be doing absolutely everything we can to stop the genocide, the bare minimum right now is demanding that a presidential hopeful, in need of our votes, commits to ending US funds to Israel. It is not that complicated. source
A tribe holds a vote to either cross a bridge to side A or stay on side B. Staying on side A means you won’t have much food. Going to side B means you still won’t have much food, but also most of the food is poisonous.
Part of the tribe (Group C) says “I don’t want to starve, I refuse to vote in a way that accepts malnourishment as a solution!” Group C also opposes eating poisonous food. This partial group votes to try and find a better source of food (option C).
48% of people vote A. 49% of people vote B. 3% of people vote C.
Surprise, surprise, Group C had 0 impact on the starving situation AND helped facilitate the eating of poisonous food.
Seems like more from the other Groups should have voted with C, or C shouldn’t have been given the option to find a better source for food.
Cool, I’ll give you a pass on the genocide, but you will still be as responsible as anyone who voted for Trump for all the other terrible things he said he will do that you are doing nothing to prevent.
If you’re not ok with genocide you should vote against Donald “just nuke them” Trump.
I am going to. Who said I’m not?
Voting for anyone but Biden is the same as voting for Trump.
I’m not going to tell anybody what to do or who to vote for but one of two things are very likely to happen at the end of this election:
- Biden is re-elected. We continue with the status quo. We have a chance to make small incremental steps toward a better future.
- Trump is elected. Two Supreme Court justices retire and Trump appoints two more. At that point he will have appointed FIVE of NINE Supreme Court justices. We have already seen what they’re willing to do. Imagine what they will do in the literal decades to come.
Choose what you want to do, but take responsibility for your choice. Vote in your local elections. Big changes can happen from the ground up.
Criticizing our leaders is one of the core principals of democracy.
Voting is also a core principal. So please stop encouraging non-participation.
How is the post encouraging anything
You clearly haven’t seen any of the replies from OP in the comments.
A large part of Lemmy including OP encourage political protest of the Democrats shortcomings by not voting.
Criticizing our leaders is one of the core principals of democracy.
Was that sarcasm I missed?
It’s not, it’s discouraging voting for the guy that counters the “boof bleach” incest loving fell who “only will be a dictator for a day”. You know, the unified Reich vibe that you totally are against lmao.
Then, why isn’t voting compulsory?
You misunderstand me, you should be allowed not to vote but encouraging it as a form of protest is misguided.
There’s a contradiction. If you are allowed not to vote in a democracy, and you don’t like any of the candidates, then, how can it be misguided to withhold your vote?
No it isn’t. You have the right not to vote but participation should be encouraged as it’s what gives everyone a say. Seems pretty simple to me. I’m not even saying they don’t have the right to discourage people but if you have lived through the last 8 years and do it, you’re a REALLY slow learner.
I am really slow, so thanks for taking the time. But, let’s say you’re a socialist, and both candidates are capitalists. So you decide that neither candidate upholds your interests. How would any “encouragement” to vote change your mind?
In the case where neither candidate represents your political positions, not voting is an act of rebellion.
I would say it’s wholely ineffective and only enables the worst actors
Then it is the fault of the electoral system and not the voters.
I voted for Gary Johnson because Hillary sounded awful in 2016 and I 1000x regret it. Fuck this system for making me choose between bad and worse, but yes obviously I have to choose bad over worse.
Most are referring to the way our current electoral system works. Voting 3rd party helps the Republicans even if its not intentional.
Yup, and the only way out of that is Ranked Choice Voting.
Go volunteer for your local RCV group, California’s is here: https://www.calrcv.org/
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Nobody thinks its a magic bullet, we’re all looking for the next rung that leads us closer to a happy democracy. None of us are looking for instant easy solutions, we’re trying to iterate and be better.
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In other words, It’s necessary but not sufficient for reforming the two party system.
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Obligatory: “Ranked Choice” is a specific use of ranked ballots. It’s subpar. It beats what we’re doing now, but anything beats what we’re doing now.
What you want is a Condorcet method like Ranked Pairs, where the winner is whoever beats everyone else. RCV just picks whoever can scrounge together 50% first. RCV would not elect a candidate who is literally everyone’s second choice. Ranked Pairs would.
The simple alternative is Approval Voting, where you let people check all the names they like. It matches Condorcet results… somehow. There is no good reason we’re not using it everywhere.
But ranked choice is easy to implement and in practice if everyone would put a candidate second they aren’t likely to be knocked out in the first round. There are very limited practical examples where it doesn’t provide the optimal outcome.
It also seems to have some level of support and momentum in the US and it seems to me like it’d be better not to get caught in the weeds fighting over which new voting system should be implemented there.
Approval is trivial.
Ranked Pairs has the same ballots as Ranked Choice and it works the way people think ranked ballots work.
RCV has momentum primarily because people keep using the name to mean “ranked ballots.”
Approval Voting seems to just dilute your vote the more candidates you vote for. Candidates will tell people people to only place one vote. What a silly system.
Your worst-case scenario is how things currently work.
Realistically, people will just ignore that shite advice, and vote for as many people as they feel like. It works out on average.
This is absurd. Take a look at the polls. There is only one 3rd-party candidate with double digit percentages. Do you really think JFK is taking more votes from Biden than Trump?
Taking the risk because you think you know something you can’t know is what’s absurd
I never made any indication on how I’m voting. I’m just tired of this baseless claim that voting 3rd party only helps Trump. Polls excluding 3rd-parties show Trump significantly further ahead than those with 3rd-parties. Therefore, Biden’s only chance of winning is due to JFK capturing conservative votes.
TIL “how America works” = “baseless claim”
What is “how America works” in this context? You seem to be trying to make the point that 3rd-party voting only hurts Biden. I’m pointing to recent polling that shows that, when 3rd-party options are included, Biden’s margins get closer to victory. You should be thanking 3rd-parties if you are hoping for a Biden victory.
So polling, that thing that told us trump couldn’t have won in 2016, makes another prediction, eh?
Yet Robert Reich has said the same thing.
Maybe. A lot of folks only know him for his good environmental stance and see him as the rightful Democrat candidate.
They don’t see his antivax bullshit and leaky brain from WiFi.
A different way to think about it - most of the intended audience on Lemmy, and especially in this community, would’ve voted democrat instead of republican. So from the frame of reference of this post, most folks here claiming to vote third party did in fact have their vote “taken” from Biden.
Yeah, but… Oftentimes criticizing Biden helps trump. I’d rather not even risk it at this point.
Can we spend more energy celebrating that trump is NOT the president and how bad it would be if he comes back?
‘Dislike’ and ‘support’ are immaterial. Votes are all that matter. Sorry in reality no one cares about your super nuanced political position but if you’re not voting for Biden in 2024 you’re either useless or an actively opposing my civil and human rights.
Ok but what no leftie has yet explained is who has asked them to like Biden? Probably nobody who votes for Biden last time or this time around thinks he’s “teh awesome”, we’re simply grown ups who are able to tell which is the least bad option. Honestly lefties (if they aren’t just groipers posing as lefties) who think it’s a hot take to say Biden isn’t the optimal person to be President are all suffering from Captain Obvious syndrome while thinking they’re the cleverest people ever. It’s cringe.
Unfortunately, the US political system does not have a feature to “dislike” all the candidates. Not without a major, probably bloody, revolution, anyway. Your choice is to support and pick one candidate, or let everyone else pick the candidate for you.
I’m ready for the third option tbh
Leftists 🤝 Tankies
Hating BidenTankies 🤝 Centrists
Doing nothing to oppose TrumpHow hard is this to understand?
Liberal democracy has to win every election, fascism only has to win one. Good job if you win in 2024, now do it again every 4 years
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
Good gets lazy. It has too much hope in others also being good.
We have been doing it for over 200 years now though
Ehhhh, things are looking a little dicey…
A group holds a vote to either cross a bridge to side A or stay on side B. Staying on side A means you won’t have much food. Going to side B means you still won’t have much food, but also most of the food is poisonous.
Part of the group says “I don’t want to starve, I refuse to vote in a way that accepts malnourishment as a solution!” Group C also opposes eating poisonous food. This partial group votes to try and find a better source of food (option C).
48% of people vote A. 49% of people vote B. 3% of people vote C.
Surprise, surprise, Group C had 0 impact on the starving situation AND helped facilitate the eating of poisonous food.
Fuck Biden, and FUCK Trump. But if you think voting for a leftist party or abstaining from voting will change anything in a system entirely designed around having only two candidates, you are just as okay with Trump as you are with Biden. At the very least, you are saying that they are equally as bad, showing that you clearly don’t understand the dynamic.
