cross-posted from: https://sopuli.xyz/post/12670977
iPhone owners say the latest iOS update is resurfacing deleted nudes
I appreciate this thread’s nuanced discussion of how file deletion works from a technical standpoint depending on storage medium. But as a user, when I delete something, it should go away forever. I don’t care how.
I don’t care how
grabs your phone, throws it on the ground and blasts it with a shotgun
There you go! =)
Cloud’s deleted folder enters the chat.
Objective updated: shoot cloud server
Many years ago, we had a troubled employee leave work very mad. He was quite furious with his computer and went home for his revolver unbeknownst to us. He came back to work with it and unloaded all six rounds into the system. Each round went through the case and each one missed the drive/motherboard/videocard. So, the system was still working despite the abrupt extra cooling holes. This further incensed him and he went away even madder, but this time in cuffs.
Wow, how do you suck that bad at aiming?
It’s pretty easy if you don’t know where the computer’s vital organs are
You never shoot the
messengermonitor.
The computer is good at dodging without moving
It’s like how I can talk while holding my breath but only over a call
John Connor has entered the chat
I’ve been pleased with their messaging on that - “deleted items remaining trash for [some period]…“ (IIRC)
Well… if you really want to delete them…
takes blasted phone, insert remnants into small iron cup, places in inductive furnace
Hey at least I know it gets the job done
Easy peasy
Lemon squeezey
But as a user, when I delete something, it should go away forever.
Years of working tech support in my past tells me that this is a lie. “OMG restore this!”
I think tech would be a better place if it did actually go away when you deleted things. If something’s not explicitly backed up people really should have no hope of bringing it back.
If every time an OS had to delete something it had to fill the space with zeros or garbage data multiple times just to make extra sure it’s gone, we’d all be trashing our flash chips very fast, and performance would be heavily degraded. There really isn’t a way around this.
The solution to keep private files private is to put them into an encrypted container of some sort where you control the keys.
Step away from hardware constraints for a moment, and consider the OS:
If the OS says a file is deleted, under no circumstances should the OS be able to recover it. Sure, certain tools may exist to pull it back; but it should be unavailable to the OS after that. And yet, apparently a software update was enough to recover these files. Thus, the concerns about data safety in an environment where the OS cannot be trusted to remove data when it says it has been removed.
So let’s stop calling it “deleted” then, and call it what it is. “Forgetting”.
I’m not sure what you actually want the OS to do about it other than as I said, fill it with random data.
Well, iOS could just do it like every other OS that don’t restore deleted data by installing an update.
I think this is just semantics at this point, but to me there is a difference between “deleted” and “erased”. I see deleted as the typical “moved to trash” or
rmaction, with erased being overwritten bits, or like microwaving a drive.Edit - If i remember correctly deleting something in most OS’s/File Systems just deletes the pointer to that file on disk. The data just hangs out until new data is written to that sector. The solution, other than the one you mentioned about encrypting stored data and destroying the key when you want the data “deleted”, would be to only ever store data in volatile memory. That would make for a horrendous user experience though.
You can delete files by overwriting the data. On Linux its shred -zu [file]. Its slow but good to do if you are deleting sensitive data.
Its good its not the standard delete function.
Question: what fraction of bits do you need to randomly flip to ensure the data is unrecoverable?
Information theory aside: In practice all because you can’t write bit-by-bit and if you leave full bytes untouched there still might be enough information for an attacker to get information, especially if it’s of the “did this computer once store this file” kind of information, not the actual file contents.
If I’m not completely mistaken overwriting the file once will be enough to prevent recovering with logical means, that is, reading the bits the way the manufacturer intended you to, physical forensics can go further by being able to discern “this bit, before it got overwritten, was a 1 or 0” by looking very closely at the physical medium, details on how much flipping you need to defeat that will depend on the physical details.
And I wouldn’t be too terribly sure about that electro magnet you built into your case to erase your HDD with a panic button: It’s in a fixed place, will have a fixed magnetic field, it’s going to scramble everything sure but the way it scrambles is highly uniform so the bits can probably be recovered. If you want to be really sure buy a crucible and melt the thing.
Also, may I interest you in this stylish tin-foil hat, special offer.
If you delete normally, only the index of the files are removed, so the data can be recovered by a recovery program reading the “empty” space on the disk and looking for readable data.
If you do a single pass erase, the bits will overwritten one time. About half the bits will be unchanged, but that makes little difference. Any recovery software trying to read it will read the newly written bits instead of the old ones and will not be able to recover anything.
However, forensic investigation can probably recover data after a single pass erase. The shred command defaults to 3 passes, but you can do many more if you need to be even more sure.
Unless you have data that someone would spend large sums on forensics to recover, 1 to 3 passes is probably enough.
If it’s completely random then 50%, that’s how stream ciphers works.
It’s to prevent you from accidentally deleting a photo you would never want to delete. If you want to make sure it’s deleted, you just go into the Photos app and delete it from the Recently Deleted folder. I prefer this approach, as I have accidentally deleted a photo that I did not mean to, and luckily it was still there. Use cases are different though, so.
That still doesn’t fully erase the data though. It just tells the computer that that space on the drive is available to be overwritten, but the 1s and 0s are still recoverable
Right, right. I understand that. I was just explaining why the option is good for people like me. I don’t take nudes, and I don’t receive nudes, so I don’t mind if the data is still there or not. I’m just glad the photo of me and my friend was still there when I noticed it was missing from my album after a recent meme deletion spree. lol
Imo there should be options for standard deletion and total deletion. Standard is faster, puts less wear on the drive, and keeps the files potentially recoverable, whole total would make it totally unrecoverable at the expense of taking slightly longer and putting a bit more wear on the drive
That is what thermite is for.
The second drive bay is the right size for a handy block of data erasing c4
No one will ever read my Zuck / Bezos fanfic.
Lol. I actually used to know a guy that claimed he used to have computer setup with a small thing to thermite on his hard drive and had set it up so if there were too many wrong passwords it would set the igniter off for the thermite. I don’t know if you really, did but he definitely had the technical skills to do that. He was one of those extreme early adopters of BSD and Linux who never used GUI. Oh and he was batshit crazy, legitimately I can see him thinking that was a good idea.
Nothing sinister, we just don’t delete what we say we delete. Instead we keep it in your profile to feed the algorithms and set the “deleted” flag to make you think it’s gone.
I mean, to be completely fair, that’s how data storage works.
We cannot really just make data disappear, so we let it get overwritten instead
But clearly the data is not overwritten and this was intentional. How do I know? Because that would amount to a massive amount of data, if it was de to a bug in Apple software or underlying filesystems, it would be detected in monitoring systems “Hey, we’re using 10x the data we should be, maybe we should look into it”.
The mistake was in the flag code that was supposed to fool us.
no when I say “overwritten” I mean that the area is set as deleted in the filesystem and the next time something writes to that area the data that was there before is disregarded.
So are you saying that they suffered from a filesystem bug that caused deletion failure? I’d imagine they use standard filesystems on their backend, I haven’t heard about any bugs like this.
If you ask me, what’s more likely, that a company known for shitty behavior lies about deleting files so they can continue to use that information to profit, – OR – that they are experiencing a filesystem bug on their backend, I’ll choose the former.
no I don’t believe a damn word of what apple’s gonna say on this, I just wanted to get the message out there that generally file deletion works by allowing data to be overwritten, so if the images are local this could very well just be that either it’s showing data that hasn’t been overwritten yet or it accidentally brought things out of the “recently deleted” depending on how long ago it was deleted.
Undeleting nudes
That’s iPhone
Seriously: I don’t think the cost benefit is there to intentionally make a maneuver like this. Any crap they pull needs to have a perfectly proper explanation, with our agreement to a specific term buried somewhere in their policies. Can only imagine how much money they blew throwing these billboards up all over the San Francisco Bay area. We have to buy Apple over Google for ostensible privacy gains, and Apple has to lock us in to their walled gardens to make up for their comparatively smaller ad/data business.
This post assumes Apple is aethical (that’s like amoral but for ethics right?) but still a self-interested economic actor. They can’t let short-term greed get in the way of long-term greed!
Seriously: I don’t think the cost benefit is there to intentionally make a maneuver like this.
You might be right
They can’t let short-term greed get in the way of long-term greed!
lol
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and the next time something writes to that area the data that was there before is disregarded.
A single overwrite might not be enough to defeat physical forensics because shadows of the old data persist in how the new data is stored. Also when it comes to SSDs you might be waiting a long time for the data to get overwritten as the drive will wear-level its erm sectors (what are those things called with SSDs?).
They are called cells IIRC
Proper deletion should include writing all ones or all zeroes to the block but y’all be lazy as fuck.
Only necessary on the ol spinning rust, with SSDs not only is it completely unnecessary, but it also burns extra writes.
Spinny’s store data magnetically on the platter with 1s and 0s, SSDs store data on the NAND as a held charge. If there’s a charge in the block it’s a 1 if there’s no charge it’s a 0.
With spinny’s, a file gets marked as “deleted” but the residual magnetic 1s and 0s will remain on the platter until eventually overwritten
With SSDs a file gets marked “deleted” and within no more than a few minutes TRIM comes along and ensures the charge on the NAND is released for that data, there’s no residuals to worry about like with spinny’s and is in fact necessary to ensure decent lifespans.
Wow, the SSD can hold the charges perfectly while unplugged for ages? Amazing.
In a post apocalyptic world where I am in charge of building a storage drive and I’m given all the instructions and fabs, the world is going without storage.
Wow, the SSD can hold the charges perfectly while unplugged for ages? Amazing.
Yup. Before flash memory, devices like video game cartridges which had game saves actually needed a battery to power the memory holding the saves.
I want a spinny as a pet now. Sounds cute.
But wouldn’t TRIM be the deleting he is requesting? Removing the charges would be setting all the bits in that block to the same value.
That just makes no sense to do, modern storage is write limited. As long as you used encryption the old bits mean nothing to anyone but you.
SSDs are. Big storage is not using SSDs.
I’m not an expert, but wouldn’t proper deletion be writing random ones and zeroes to the block? Multiple times?
I don’t think it’s been shown to make a difference.
It certainly feels more deleted…
It was sort of true in the past, but not anymore. I think writing random data once is probably fine, even for most state level actors.
yeah cuz for normal, day-to-day use that’s exponentially slower the more you’re deleting
You can do that when you wipe something.
Yeah, such as sensitive photos
the shred command in Linux tries to do this, but it may not work if the hardware moves rewritten data blocks around to mitigate wear.
That’s skipping over the fact that recovering deleted data, even if it isn’t overwritten, is not an “oops”. It it takes extra effort, and if that data isn’t being protected it would be overwritten incidentally as drives are used.
There is a big difference in a database between “flagging” data and actually removing the association of the data to the database.
The data just needs to be overwritten to be truly deleted.
That’s how a lot of people handle deleted data in database, it’s literally just a flag. That’s why there’s a recommendation to edit Reddit posts before deleting them, to ensure they’re actually overwritten so they can’t just be restored.
Every time someone says something like this I have to explain CDC and regular old backups. There’s no way in hell Reddit doesn’t keep cold and hot backups of their shit. And while Reddit is unlikely to be doing CDC for soc2 or other compliance reasons, it’s the easiest method to capture data for analytics purposes.
CDC stands for change data capture. It’s generally done with databases by streaming the change log or ref log to a bucket or a service like Kafka where you can fast forward and rewind the log queue to see the state of the DB at any point in time. Even if you edit your comments it’s likely sitting in a Kafka topic or a snowflake bucket outside of the DB or cache used for the presentation layer.
Zero large scale websites operate with a truly single data store. There is always another layer that your user operations don’t impact
Yes, that’s certainly possible, but it’s also out of my control. I have basically three options:
- Delete account - we know this doesn’t delete comments
- Delete comment - “seems” to delete comments, but we’ve seen comments get restored - so probably using a “deleted” flag
- Edit comment with nonsense and when delete - should poison comment if they’re just using the deleted flag
That’s it. There’s no guarantee it works, but it has a much higher chance of working than the other two.
And there’s a good chance they delete old backups. Hosting every edit is expensive, so there’s a decent chance they clean up old data after some months.
In 2019 the total size of the text stored by Reddit was only 50TB. A Petabyte of data in cold storage is only 12k a year so even if they 500x in size since 2019 (very unlikely) it’s a drop in their ARR. given they sell the data for advertising and for AI, they are not deleting it. Reddit also self hosts a lot of their infra (they used to present their architecture at kubecon) so the storage costs would be even lower
Funny how you think an edit doesn’t write the old record to a comments_old table
Well, there’s a non-zero chance they were too lazy to implement that.
They don’t care about your security or privacy, they care about being the exclusive vendor of your personal information.
Just the nudes. Nothing else.
Not true, it specifically states in the article that, for example, one user had over 300 photos reappear, “some of which were revealing”. This is obviously not great but it isn’t likely as scandalous as it’s being made out to be.
The joke --------->
You ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It was kinda wrote like a statement. People who didn’t read the article will read it as such, misinforming people
Have you always been a pedant or is this a recent development?
There’s so much misinformation online, sure it could have been a joke but it’s so easy to just be lazy, read the comment straight and move on acting like there’s some kind of operation going on at Apple stealing your nudes. I don’t really care if it’s a joke or not, and you’re not even the OP so who are you to say it’s for a fact a joke?
That was the case for me, until I decided to read the article
What article, it’s just a link. If I can’t read it here it ain’t there.
We shouldn’t encourage post-bot behaviour in the posters, title+summary or gtfo.
If misinformation is a minor issue to you, then I can’t do better
Since we’re being pedantic: the word you’re looking for is “written” not “wrote”.
I don’t see where I’ve mentioned a small English mistake. I said that it was written like a statement, which could misinform people
I think you may have speeded to a conclusion.
It’s scandalous regardless. The nudes just highlight the danger of this.
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If you never had any nudes in the first place, and update, is there a chance to get some?
Asking for a friend.
You should check out the federated backup of Apple Cloud. You can reach it at lemmynsfw.com. I mean your friend.
Every time I go looking, there’s a barren desert of male/gay content. In some lateral communities, furry porn is beating the content ratio like 10:1.
Y’all need to hold your phones or something while you browse the 5 billion straight communities, give me something that’s not weeks+ old. Uncut guys to the front of the queue, thanks. 📸
Be the change you want to see in the world
The only problem with that server is there are tons of shit you’d rather not see. It’s sadly not as easy to filter like the reddit porn subs are.
Is it that bad? I’ve been making a habit of blocking every community that shows up that I don’t want to see. So these days I rarely see stuff I really don’t want to see.
It just gets tiresome when you have to block 100 communities for the 15 you wanna see
In that case just subscribe to the 15 you want to see then?
Kinda hard to find them if you don’t know they exist in the first place.
I think that already happened and was called “The Fappening”. You can still find it with Google.
I remember the night when I found out about that and saw Jennifer Lawrence was one of the victims 😍
Good job Lemmy
Check your DMs 😏
Cool
Next up, it starts showing other peoples nudes
There’s a post on reddit about some dude who gave his phone to a friend (wiped it, new iCloud, everything), and the undeleted photos are from when OP owned the phone.
With a factory reset the phones encryption keys will be destroyed and nothing should be retrievable from that device. Even if the data isn’t overwritten, without the encryption key no one could read it.
At least that’s my understanding of the modern safety- and encryption features of recent phone models/mobile OS’s.
The worst part: Apple’s iCloud is end-to-end encrypted and even Apple can’t see the users files, at least that is what they say.
If what the dude on Reddit states is true, then this is bad, really really bad! 😮
you can enable end to end encryption, it’s optional. I don’t think it’s enabled by default.
Not all of iCloud is end to end encrypted unless you manually activate their extra secure mode (which disables a few features too)
It does happen I have a buddy who sold his phone to another buddy they reset it but there was still random files and stuff on it even after factory reset
hey guy I’ve got a buddy too
Link pls?
“I know it’s not your nude, but it’s a nude and that’s what you were looking for, right?”
Of course it’s company policy to never imply ownership in the event of a nude. It’s always the indefinite article “a” nude. Never “your” nude.
That’s a feature, not a bug
I mean that’s what is happening if the phone used to belong to someone else
Computer data is never actually “deleted” until it’s overwritten with new 1s and 0s — operating systems simply cut off references to it.
That’s not entirely correct, and I would expect a tech news site to know but ig not.
It’s true with spinny’s since they store data magnetically on the platter with 1s and 0s, but SSDs store data on the NAND as a held charge. If there’s a charge in the block it’s a 1 if there’s no charge it’s a 0.
With spinny’s, when a file gets marked as “deleted” the residual magnetic 1s and 0s will remain on the platter until eventually overwritten like they say
But with SSDs, when a file gets marked “deleted” then within no more than a few minutes TRIM comes along and ensures the charge on the NAND is released (Which means that data is gone, permanently) for that data, there’s no residuals to worry about like with spinny’s and is in fact necessary to ensure decent lifespans.
This is dependent on the TRIM schedule. It could be size based (execute a TRIM when 50% of the blocks are used).
It could be or maybe the SSD has its own on-firmware TRIM schedule, but all major OS’s execute a TRIM on a time based schedule no longer than every 10-15 minutes.
Afaik the default for windows 10 is weekly via disk defragmenter, and that assumes it recognizes the drive as an ssd. I’ve had drives cloned to ssds that retain the hdd flag and had to setup a 3rd party tool that actually saw it properly and would trim as expected.
11 might have reigned that in… but probably not.
Perhaps, but this is unrelated. The magnetic charges may still be there, but if the reference to the content is deleted, how is the filesystem meant to know what file is there? This seems really suspicious to me.
TRIM works outside the filesystem, it does not care about 99.9% of it, the only part it cares about is if there is a reference in filesystem to the block charges. No reference == data to be released
Good thing I already knew Iphone wasn’t private.
I mean, they make you sign in with an Icloud ID
Never accepted the agreement, it constantly asks me to but works without it
Having said that, I am sure it still steals my photos because it’s close sourced
damn, user ilikeboobies, is security conscious? What a time to be alive.
Surprise backup
Oh, it’s up!
Is it just nudes or is it all old photos?
The former would be hilarious, it would mean that iOS explicitly classified those images as nudes.
Indeed. But Apple does have the tech to analyze images/videos:
Apple’s CSAM detection capability is built solely to detect known CSAM images stored in iCloud Photos that have been identified by experts at NCMEC and other child safety groups.
which means they exported this task to some Indians overaeas… fuck which is just worse
ok so probably not, CSAM detection, specifically modern detection the kind that MS does, is based on image hashes, and how it works is that the law collects and creates the hash sets for these images, and distributes them to tech companies, who can then use them to calculate against hashes of existing photos, and if a match returns, ladies and gentleman, we got em.
It’s using hashes, no?
The article is being disingenuous about data not being deleted unless it’s overwritten with 1’s and 0’s. Technically that’s true, but:
Most data being deleted is equivalent to a piece of paper being placed in a trashcan, and it’s “permanently” deleted when that trash gets hauled away to a landfill (or supposedly recycling but that’s another topic). Technically it’s still forensically accessible, but it isn’t accessible by any normal means. That piece of paper may not have been incinerated, but for the majority of practical purposes, it’s gone.
Apple never hauled the trash away, even though they claimed they did. There should be no way for them to accidentally restore those photos, just like there’s no way for you to accidentally get a piece of paper back in your trash bin after it’s been sent to a landfill.
Focusing on the 1s and 0s skips past the fact they failed to complete the first, obvious, essential step. If they didn’t delete it the simple way, they would never have gotten to the 1s and 0s step. This isn’t just a simple oversight, and those pictures were still very easily accessible, just not to the people who should have been in control of them.
In your analogy, they never even put the photos in the trash can. They just put a postit on them saying “don’t show to user”. Then the updated software forgot about the postits (and started to post tits).
I dont trust that client side scanning or other system components arent going through these half deleted files
Hm… I curiously checked my phone, deleted images/videos are still deleted and haven’t resurfaced. Then again I don’t mix technology with nudity. /shrug
There are tons of reasons to take nude photos… you often have to send in nude photos for the beginning stages of surgery consultations.
And sexting is fun.
This comment comes across insanely judgemental of the individual, when the issue is that Apple deleting data and thus violating privacy.
It’s not just nudes, though. This could happen for any deleted picture. I’m not really expecting them to zero out the file system block or anything, but this implies they’re not even doing file system level deletion.
i’m almost certain this is more of a cloud bug than anything. Fucking up the incredibly basic process of “hey this shit isn’t real, don’t look here for anything” is hilarious.
There shouldnt be a fucking excuse. Did you accidentally roll back an fs journal? No, good, because that’s how you get dataloss
Yeah… I think I’d rather do that in person than to video record or take images of myself nude. Privacy and security is a pretty big deal to me. Hence, I don’t mix technology with nudity.
You’ve never been in a long distance relationship? And as I said, some people need to take nudes for medical reasons. It’s not a hypothetical situation, I know multiple people who have done this.
It’s fine that you have your own personal philosophy for taking nudes, but your post is coming off as judgemental of those who do.
It’s not the individual’s fault, it’s Apple’s fault for being unclear about what the delete feature is actually doing.
Hm… I never felt a need to expose myself (using tech) to another person to feel validated or to get their (or my) rocks off or for any other reason, honestly. I’m not trying be morally superior, I’m just saying I don’t expose myself with technology as a medium. In fact, I’ve never posted a photo of myself on any social media. I take privacy and security seriously.
Plus look at the consequences of exposing yourself to others through tech… blackmail, image-based abuse/exploitation, revenge p*rn etc…
My initial comment was simply stating that Apple’s latest update hasn’t undeleted any of my photos/videos in general but that then again I don’t have any nude images/videos on my iphone/iCloud storage if the claim is that nude images/videos exclusively are getting undeleted.
Ah okay. I didn’t interpret this as only nudes being undeleted, so I was reading your comment in that light. Understandable.
I just want to appreciate an argument where both user names check out, considering the stances taken by the “whore” and the “square” per the names.
🔥🔥 YES
I love mixing technology with nudity. But I have also avoided this problem because I don’t mix technology and Apple.
So you use a de-googled android?
You don’t mix technology and YOUR nudity 😉
haha…
I think mixing tech and nudity is awesome! I love getting dickpics!
Did you think some else’s nudes might have resurfaced there…?
No they’re just feeling morally superior for no good reason.
As a rule, files never get deleted… They get over written. So it depends on whether that process has happened to any loose images.
can’t wait for my personally hosted, and managed hardware server to start serving me shit i never put up in the first place.
Oh wait that won’t happen, because i host it, and it’s mine, and i own it.
Well, someone obviously didn’t read past the headline: its undeleting images locally that haven’t been overwritten
yeah and i can’t have that issue because i use a real filesystem that isn’t schizophrenic, because if it was you would get dataloss
Thank fuck for nerds writing open source software. Otherwise my life would be hell.
merges WordPress into the apt repository for grep
watches the world burn
:)
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I’m a paper user and I burn all my letters using a large amount of heat.
I’m a stone tablet user and I throw my tablets off Mt. Sinai.
Im an etch-a-shetch user, and a good shake is all it takes.
Etch-a-sketch is clearly the superior technology. Everyone should just keep their nudes in etch-a-sketch form.
Instructions unclear, aluminum powder stuck in my naughty bits.
It helps erase whatever you drew if you shake the etch-a-sketch too!
I’m a signal flare user and this metaphor is really falling down
I still don’t get why people take pictures of themselves being nude and complained when it got leak because data breach
You don’t? Really?
I don’t, I didn’t even shower naked
Tobias, is that you?
There are dozens of us.
Maybe if you turned the water temperature up.
“I don’t understand why people have sex and then complain when they can’t get an abortion because of Roe v Wade being appealed.”
This is what you sound like. Blame the system, not the individual for having a better sex life than you.
Pretty sure physical contact is far superior to… sending nudes. But if that’s having a better sex life, hey good on you LOL
The tease of getting a well-lit nude in the middle of the workday? 🧑🏻🍳🤌🏻💋
It’s all about the antici … pation.
