Why does everyone keep bring up my kid dating? In my day you could date kids and no one would bat an eye. Now the woke mob says it’s bad. Go woke go broke
No shame
Good. It’s what he deserves. I was 9 or 10 when that happened and I remember thinking it was so gross and being confused why people were just like…cool with it? I’m glad people are calling him out now - better late than never, I guess.
Boomers have a much higher tolerance of SA and grooming. Look at how it’s just accepted that Rock Stars could have underaged… pursuits.
I know this won’t be popular, but it’s for a few reasons:
- It wasn’t and isn’t illegal.
- Most people would look at her and see a hot woman and understand it.
- This whole puritanical BS that if you are over 18 and find someone under 18 attractive, that makes you a pedophile, is a modern a theme. Back then people were free to admit that they found young women attractive without being labelled by so many to have a mental disorder.
I speak strongly about this because I think we are doing great damage to mental health to repeatedly claim it’s a mental disorder to have a completely normal and common biological attraction.
But don’t get me wrong, I 100% support protecting minors from predators. I agree these laws should exist, I just wish people would stop pretending that there is something wrong with the attraction itself.
I don’t really have an issue with a 16 year old dating an 18 year old. They’re close enough that the age thing wouldn’t be an issue, but 17 and 38 is a bit different.
I also don’t really have an issue with adults being attracted to… people below the legal limit so long as they don’t act on it. It’s very difficult to have this discussion when most people can’t grasp that desires don’t always lead to actions and have problems separating fiction from reality. There are people with rape fetishes that find healthy, consensual ways to simulate the act, something that the mainstream can’t really cope with.
But that’s not really the discussion we’re having. Jerry Seinfeld had a teenaged girlfriend when he was 38. Celebrities using their positions of power isn’t acceptable.
Romeo and Juliet laws show we absolutely have some tolerance for adults dating teenagers. And nobody I know is saying a 17 year old can’t be sexually attractive. The problem is they essentially unarmed against the average 30 year old. And I’d much rather draw a line somewhere than the actual puritanical practice of marrying teenagers to a 40 year old man who happens to have the most money available.
You’re telling on yourself quite a bit here. Your mental health doesn’t have to suffer if you find a “biologically mature” woman attractive but after a certain age if you’re seeing a “hot woman” and not “a young girl” there definitely is some deviation from the norm.
We’re talking about sexual attraction to children that don’t know how to file their taxes and are just learning what it means to be an adult. If your sexual attraction to someone is purely physical and not affected by your rational mind telling you that they’re a kid then there really is a bit of a disconnect there.
Maybe you’re closer in age to them than I am, there’s certainly a range of “adult ages” where people are still developing mentally, but when you’re old enough that you’re finding a woman SEXUALLY attractive who is the age of your daughter or your friends’ daughters that’s a red flag and worth some introspection.
You’re telling on yourself quite a bit here.
I’m perfectly comfortable with who I am attracted to. Don’t worry about my mental health. There is no telling on myself, I’m 100% open about it.
I just recognize that this is the same BS trauma that we’ve been inflicting on gay people by telling them that their perfectly normal and natural attraction is some kind of mental issue. Just like how I see through when someone claims gay people have a mental problem, I see through the implications that men being attracted to young women is indicative of some kind of mental issue.
but after a certain age if you’re seeing a “hot woman” and not “a young girl” there definitely is some deviation from the norm.
We are talking about a young woman in her prime reproductive years. Objectively speaking, evolutionarily, it would make sense that men are attracted to this. In fact, I would argue that if you don’t find them physically attractive, you are the one deviating from the norm. Now to be clear, don’t confuse what I’m saying with emotional and intellectual attractiveness.
We’re talking about sexual attraction to children
No we’re not, we’re talking about being attracted to women in their prime reproductive years. They are young and likely immature and we should have laws that protect them, but let’s not conflate that with the physical attraction being a mental illness.
I’m probably as old or older than you. I’ve talked to people in their 40s who I find completely emotionally immature and intellectually unattractive, and I’ve talked to teenagers whom I’ve found to be mature and the conversation to be intellectually stimulating. Although the latter is few and far between, and getting further apart as I age.
Would I want to have a relationship with them? No. Would I want to have sex with them? Sure.
prime reproductive years
girls enter puberty so much earlier than boys, their capable of reproduction anywhere from 10-12. When you talk about “prime reproductive years,” know that it includes girls as young as 10. So… stop using that term. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and inferring that you actually mean girls that are on the very cusp of womanhood, like, ages 17-19, but others may not.
Women are hot, girls are not. Some girls can appear to be older than they are, and it’s confusing when confronted with a genuinely attractive woman that is not yet 18, because we’re caught between the confusing notions of “I am attracted to this person” and “this person is not yet old enough to to be engaged with in a socially conscious manner.” It’s not wrong to find the person attractive, it IS wrong to engage with them in a manner reserved for those that are fully realized adults. For my purposes, I’m putting adulthood at around age 22-25, when your brain is pretty much fully developed.
So with that being said, No, Jerry Seinfeld didn’t do a bad thing by thinking a 17 year old girl attractive, he DID do a bad thing by engaging with her as if she was a fully formed adult.
When you talk about “prime reproductive years,” know that it includes girls as young as 10.
Prime reproductive years for women is generally late teens to late 20s. I’ll keep using the term because I’m using it accurately, and it’s exactly the whole point: biologically speaking why would it be surprising that some men would find a women who is prime for reproduction attractive? It just makes perfect sense.
it’s confusing when confronted with a genuinely attractive woman that is not yet 18,
It’s only confusing to you because you’ve bought into the puritanical notion that there is something wrong with being attracted to young women; there’s really nothing confusing about it: it’s reasonable to find them physically attractive, but almost certainly inappropriate to engage in a relationship with them. This is the misconception I’m trying to dispell here.
I agree that at best he did a questionable thing. However I know nothing of her maturity at the time. As I’ve said elsewhere, I’ve met emotionally and intellectually immature 40 year olds (certainly plenty in their late 20s) and intellectually stimulating and mature 16 year olds. If it’s legal, and she was mature, why would it be wrong? And would it be wrong if I had sex with “a fully formed adult” when she is emotionally immature? I get we need a rule to catch the vast majority of the cases, but from a moral stand point I can’t say why it would be okay to have sex with an emotional immature adult, but not okay to have sex with an emotionally mature adult just because the latter is younger than the former.
Again, don’t get me wrong, the vast majority of the time there is some taking advantage going on, and there should be laws to stop it. I’m not arguing against this.
One of the leading causes of death for teen girls aged 15-19 is complications from childbirth. Also infants born to teen mothers have increased risk of death and poorer health outcomes. One of the most common issues is obstructed labor, since their pelvises are too small to accomdate a baby.
Recent research has also found teen pregnancy is linked to premature death later in life.
The science doesn’t agree that teen girls are in their prime reproductive years. I wish this idea would fade into the history books and live alongside the idea that women shouldnt ride trains because their uteruses would fly out.
Some links below for your convenience.
https://www.nicswell.co.uk/health-news/teenage-pregnancy-death-concern
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/health/teen-pregnancy-early-death.html
If it’s legal, and she was mature, why would it be wrong
Well a thing being legal does not make a thing right. Emotional maturity is subjective, and thus is not what we use for determining whether a person is considered an adult or not.
would it be wrong if I had sex with “a fully formed adult” when she is emotionally immature?
Maturity isn’t the guiding rod by which we can determine adulthood. I’m suggesting that age is relevant to this, because it’s the best we have at determining brain formation. Intellectual disabilities in an adult would mean that engaging with them sexually is wrong, showing that it is the functionality of the brain that determines adulthood. If there was never a need for a draft, I think we would naturally have concluded adulthood starts around 22-25, instead of the arbitrary designation of 18. For the purpose of having a hard rule to stop children from being taken advantage of, age is the best we have (for people without intellectual/developmental disabilities).
With that in mind, we really can say definitively, that no, Seinfeld isn’t wrong for finding her attractive, but he was for having a sexual relationship with her.
That being said, arguing that the urges behind the wrong act are “natural,” seems to argue for a relaxation of our attitude towards these relationships, which is also wrong. which is why other Lemmineers got the “ick” from your previous comment.
Because nobody is upset that he found her attractive. We’re upset because he was a fully formed adult, with super-stardom and all the trappings of power that come with it, engaging in a sexual relationship with a not fully formed adult.
YIKES DAWG
Can’t defend indefensible positions.
Is what you need to start telling yourself.
We are talking about a young woman in her prime reproductive years. Objectively speaking, evolutionarily, it would make sense that men are attracted to this. In fact, I would argue that if you don’t find them physically attractive, you are the one deviating from the norm.
You’re fucking gross.
So gross! I can’t believe he’s out in the daylight. Every sentence I read just got worse and worse…
Yep. Picking the bear.
Imagine responding to an actual thought out, reasoned argument with some braindead thought terminating snark. Saves the effort of trying to actually engage in conversation or uncomfortable thoughts I guess but that’s about it.
Still picking the bear. Your reply, and all the other salty misogynist replies are exactly why.
Ok, have fun I guess? Congratulations? Not sure what response you expect.
I didn’t ask
To me, it’s a distraction. I think it’s legal in just about every state for someone to marry a child under the age of 15 with the approval of their parents.
It’s not. Child marriage is illegal, even with parental consent, in 12 states. Proud Jersey boy here. If you don’t live in a blue state that isn’t one of the 12, start shaming your politicians.
The issue seems to be that he was dating and fucking them.
Yup. I can’t listen to classic rock because it’s near impossible to find a band or artist who wasn’t fucking people under 16.
Hell, they wrote songs about it. “Jailbait” by Ted Nugent, “Seventeen” by Winger… I’m sure there are more.
You mean the Ted Nugent that had a 13yr old girl living in his house while writing jailbait?
Bro he’s a pedophile, pointing to a pedophile and going look there it’s normal is fucking crazy.
I’m not saying it’s normal. I’m saying it was normalized in the past, and thankfully that attitude is changing now and we can see how gross it always was.
Yes, Nugent is a fucking pedophile. He absolutely isn’t alone in the world of rock in that, though.
Chuck Berry: hold my guitar.
Jerry Lee Lewis: hang onto this piano for me.
The list is as long as musicians are famous.
Aerosmith: gestures vaguely at discography
They really do. My own father married a 17 year old when he was 26 (years before he met my mom), and I spent a long time trying to justify it to myself with the fact that a lot of people did that kind of thing in the 70s. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I was finally able to process my feelings about him as a human separate from my feelings about him as a father and just admit that was disgusting. He actually said her parents should’ve had him thrown in jail, but she was already a huge asshole (and still is) and they probably saw an opportunity to pawn her off on someone else. I’m not surprised she was a nightmare with everyone around her totally failing her, though.
“Jerry Seinfeld and Shoshanna Lonstein Gruss claimed they were “just friends” in the beginning of their relationship and only went public when she turned 18…”
“…Shoshanna is a person, not an age. She is extremely bright. She’s funny, sharp, very alert. We just get along. You can hear the click.”
And don’t forget:
It wasn’t that bad… Oh, yeah, it was that bad.
Yeah I remember first hearing about it after watching Seinfeld (the show) a few years back and thought it must be some overreaction for a bad joke or something, then I heard the recording and well, definitely not an overreaction
Those edgy comedians and their… checks notes wistfully harking back to days when they were able to lynch black people.
Shoshanna is a person, not an age
Um aktuly, it’s called ephibaphilia
“If you don’t like it, cancel me!”
Jerry probably shouldn’t be talking about other people’s ability to make bad decisions.
In the declining years of his career perhaps he’s combative with everyone on purpose.
“Just cancel me”, does he think there’s someone somewhere that decides who is unacceptable to the public?
He wants to create a controversy just so his name can be in the news, all publicity is good publicity when you sell spectacle.
He just did a little whoopsie!
Jerry Seinfeld and his family were in Caliber 3. During their visit to Israel last week, they came to us for a special and exciting activity with displays of combat, Krav Maga, assault dogs and lots of Zionism. It was great.”
I guess ‘lots of Zionism’ would mean ‘Israel invades everyone?’
Japan should take the islands
Hey that guy from the meme, did you know he’s a Bible thumping Christian bigot?
I did not. If he is into lots of Zionism my meme is ruined!
He went to a church where the pastor said some stuff others don’t like and people expected him to attack the pastor using their values.
I saw this post the other day and laughed a bit about how often I see people who don’t realize that this is them. They tie themselves up trying justify why it’s okay because their values are TRUE while others are only true
https://lemmy.world/post/15186358?scrollToComments=true
But because he didn’t do what they wanted him to do then he’s now a huge piece of shit with Spiked up hair, button up shirt, open all the way, sunglasses doing Jaegar Bombs all fucking night,
OK, you alt-right troll
yeah fuck chris pratt
I mean what’s the deal with age anyway /s
Just a number!
He is a shitty person
“Pedophiles…who are these people??”
I dont like jerry seinfeld at all but implying that he is a pedo is completely unsubstantiated. I think the scandals here are gross but everyone is clearly above the age of consent.
What is the deal with hyperbolically claiming that Jerry Seinfeld, who dated a high school girl, is a pedophile?
True, I was being hyperbolic. 17 is the age of consent in New York, so he was skimming REEEEALLY close to the line.
Not everything legal is ethical.
And not everything illegal is unethical. (But dating a 17 year old when you’re 38 definitely is.)
Agreed
It’s still fucking gross. He was almost 40 and dating someone far less mature, rich, powerful, and famous than he was. A young person doesn’t magically grow up the day they turn the age of consent in their home state.
I completely agree, I just think that the term pedophile is “charged” enough that it should be carefully applied
Honestly same, it’s basically become code for “Person I don’t like.”
Especially as it keep getting applied to people like Leonardo DiCaprio who’s “victims” are… people literally over the age of consent.
It’s always amused me as a Jewish person that Jerry Seinfeld is so Jewish that he’s even only pedophilic with Jewish girls.
So we’re being prejudiced against two consenting adults now? Would love to see how you respond to this person:
She wasn’t an adult when he started the relationship.
If they only dated for four years she was arguably still not a mature adult when they broke up, too.
FWIW The age of consent in NY is 17.
There are sources refuting that claim, but I have other issues with your viewpoints on this anyways.
Which are what? That his need to only date Jewish women even when only they’re 17 is not amusing? Are you Jewish? Because if you aren’t, maybe you wouldn’t understand why that’s funny.
For one I think many of your takes are just subjective opinions that others often disagree with, but they seem to be said as if they are somehow concrete facts that others can’t or shouldn’t disagree with, but not everything is always so black and white. And I feel like a lot of your responses are strawman arguments and just unnecessarily negative and condescending. It makes this not a fun place to be IMO.
No one is forcing you to talk to me. You are free to block me. It sounds like you should.
And yes, I believe my opinions to be based in fact. Are yours based on faith?
Are yours based on faith?
See this is exactly what I’m talking about, the deflection and ad hominem. We should attack the position, not the person.
I believe my opinions to be based in fact
It’s one thing to believe it, but it’s another to provide credible sources when trying to speak authoritatively. The burden of proof is always on the person making the empirically unfalsifiable claims. I feel like you generally don’t do that.
You are free to block me
Yes, but you are also an omnipresent moderator of several communities and that can make things difficult. I would prefer mods to set a better example. You may not agree with me, but that continues to be my wish.
I think many of your takes are just subjective opinions that others often disagree with, but they seem to be said as if they are somehow concrete facts
Welcome to the Internet?
I remember we had a coworker (in his late 20s or early 30s) gushing on how he celebrated his gfs 18th birthday. Then we all started doing the math when earlier he had mentioned they had been together for 2 years.
was it ex-Liverpool striker Sadio Mane?
Senegal star Sadio Mane (31) marries longtime girlfriend Aisha Tamba (18)
age added to headline by me
Oh geeze. Don’t know who that is but this was back in the mid-2000s.
Bruh typicall teacher moment
Had a similar incident, but he was 35, she was 18, and they’d been together 6 years. Bonus, they were Christian 🤮
Jerry Seinfeld’s teen girlfriend is probably past middle age by now.
If she was 17 in 93, she’s 48 now.
Wow, that’s getting up there… Wait, she’s only a few years older than me.
Oh god
She’s not that much older than me either. Now I remember why I never do time calculation from the 1990’s.
time flies!
And her parents were okay with this? Wow!
As gross as it is, 38 year old celebrity millionaire isn’t the same as 38 year old Ted in shipping and receiving.
Ted sounds like quite the importer/exporter. I feel like he should focus more on the imports than the exports. E.g. latex, diapers, chips and long matches.
Pretty much how I regard Seinfeld.
That pic of him pinching her nose is especially revolting.
Dare I ask why
To me, it emphasizes the fact that she’s a schoolkid, and it’s like he’s playing “got your nose”. If they were both adults, it would be a cute, silly moment, but…
Underage of what? Consent age in NY is 17
Technically correct. I fixed the wording.
So they were both of the age of consent, and even her family approved of their relationship, but somehow it’s still revolting?
A 38 year old dating a high schooler? Yeah, I think that’s gross. I don’t care who approved of it. By the same token. nobody needs to agree with me, either.
as long as you’re not trying to convince others to feel a specific way about it, kudos for being tolerant of people having different opinions.
Not that my opinion is worth anything either :)
Yes. How difficult is that to understand for you? The age of consent isn’t some magical day where a person suddenly matures and is capable of making all of the right decisions.
He was 38, fabulously wealthy, and incredibly famous. She was a 17-year old schoolgirl. THAT’S. FUCKING. GROSS!
The fact that her family were just like “a rich, aging celebrity?!? Of course you can predate on and fuck my 17 year old daughter”, that says awful things about her parents.
thedailybeast
damn he’s so cancelled now /s
IMO this is a nothingburger that only a small vocal minority of generally unpopular opinioned people are pushing, I would bet money nothing is going to happen.
I have not seen any concrete evidence that would lead me to think so negatively of him like these comments I’m reading would suggest. We have a difference of opinion but I don’t think that justifies calling someone a pedophile for dating a mutually consenting adult.
Also:
According to People in March 1994, sources told the magazine that Lonstein Gruss’ family approved of the match
Seinfeld met her when she was a 17 in a public place and got her number. She was a minor. She wasn’t an adult. Say what you want about being “canceled” or whatever nonsense you want to say to frame it, but that is the very definition of grooming. Are you okay with the grooming of minors?
Are you ok with the age of consent in NY being 17?
You are in this thread a lot, defending Jerry every time.
Good for you for having a hobby.
Not trying to defend him. But sexual self-determination of 17 or 18 year old girls is a strange topic. Usually most people, especially the girls themselves are all for it. We generally are too. Unless it is our own daughter, a sister, a god-daughter or someone like that. Than we do not want them to actually exert this right. And we do love to use love affairs of couples like this as ammunition if we want to discredit someone, don’t we?
The girls themselves are mostly “all for it” when it’s people roughly their age. There are exceptions but most girls that age see 30+ year olds as lame old dudes. Most 30+ year olds aren’t going after high school girls either. That’s why we all cringed at David Woodson’s line in “Dazed and Confused”.
The people who don’t want them to “exert this right” are the responsible parents, friends and community who know that a 30+ year old dating a teenager is creepy AF.
The few people who actually support this are mostly rationalizing.
For the sake of expanding the discussion:
What about an 18 year old and someone who is 30 doing consensual sexual activities together? They are both adults according to law. I am legitimately interested in people’s thoughts here. 30 seems to be the most common example, for instance.
There’s not much to discuss. The vast majority of the time it’s creepy grooming and we all know it. It’s technically legal and there may be cases when it’s genuinely a case of consent and mutual attraction but those are the exceptions.
Attempts to find the exact line are futile. “Half your age plus seven” is a rule of thumb, not a clear border.
I mostly want to have these discussions because there has been such pushback from the right in the areas of relationship equality, marriage, age of consent, etc. I want us to be able to look at people who have been convinced and really be able to say, “Well no, because of this reason.” Maybe I’m wrong, though I do feel there’s some merit to making things clear for those who don’t see it in the same light.
There is no single reason. It’s the sum of many reasons. They’re too many to list exhaustively but when we see a concrete example the vast majority of people come to the same conclusion on creepy vs appropriate.
When there isn’t a clear line, trying to define one is misleading. You can always find some couple somewhere on earth with an arbitrarily large age gap where people will agree that it’s the result of informed consent. People then try to make the argument that this justifies all relationships with that age gap even though most relationships don’t have whatever extenuating circumstances made the one example palatable.
Large age gaps are creepy. Whenever someone has to ask if a particular age gap is also creepy the answer is almost always, “Yes.”
I guess each person is different. I have zero sexual interest for women under (at very least) 25 (i am slightly older than him at the time they meet)
Even if they look older than they are, i still have no interest because there is too much different life experience and expectations. I just don’t click (as a friend let alone as lover or partner).
Why 18 and not 17 or 25? Well society decided this is a (imo conservative, could have been higher) threshold for old people to have sex with young people.
Also 17 year old people can totally have sex with people of similar age (and we all have done 🙂) so it is not really about sexual self determination but rather avoiding predatory/manipolative behaviors of (much) older partners/lovers
I’m 46. The women in MILF porn feel too young for me sometimes. Really. I want to see women around my age in porn more. That’s who I’ve always been most attracted to- women approximately the same age as me.
Well society decided this
Some societies did. Retardistan is notn “The Society”. Retardistan also decided that you can volunteer to go to war and get killed for your country and that at the same time you are not old enough to have a beer. Maybe Retardistan is not the measure of all things.
In Germany, while it never is ok for a person in a position of power to abuse this power, regardless of age or sexes, the age of consent is generally 14, 16 at the latest. Not everybody is happy with that of course, but maybe one should be a little more open to see more colors than black and white.
Regarding Seinfeld: Was he actually in a position of power over this girl? How so?
You are really not talking about this any more.
What Germany has to do with this? What war has to do with this?
If you weren’t a trustworthy internet stranger i would make conjectures that this is a topic that hits you personally and you live in Germany. And you are talking about yourself here.
But good you are a trustworthy internet stranger that totally would not look in all possible provisions and exceptions for justifying their actions
I personally am not interested in women that are more than 5 or 6 years my senior or junior. But I don’t judge. Why did I bring up the army, you ask? Only as an example of 'muricans deciding what’s age-appropriate. Joining the army and going to war? 17 year olds will do. Having a beer and shagging the neighbour? NO! That’s immoral if you are not at least 21 and/or about the same age as the neighbour! Driving a SUV that has hundreds of horse powers and weighs multiple tons? 16! It just doesn’t make any sense. So maybe turn at least down the judgyness a nudge. So Seinfeld had a fling with a consenting adult. So what? Judge him for being the most overrated and unfunny comedian ever, not for this. But as a German, who am I to judge humor. I am sure some people even appreciate his “humor”.
'Muricans and their opinions about age are really, really strange and shouöd not be a point of reference for anybody.
No. We want them to have healthy relationships. Being groomed is not healthy. It’s also nearly impossible to have that kind of an age difference without grooming being involved. This is why we have Romeo and Juliet laws to set boundaries for teenagers.
It’s the position of power that might play a role, so as a rule, if you might be in position of power (boss, gov authority figure, or just older), make really really sure everything is out in the open and talked about. It’s a necessary topic to understand consent.
Absolutely. It is really not ok for someone in a position of power over a another person to leverage that power for personal gain. The age and gender of the “victim” only plays a minir role in that scenario, however.
Also: Was Seinfeld in a position of power over her?
When I was a teen I would have been “all for it” with adult women. But maybe adults should not groom children regardless of that. The power dynamic is gross.
I get crucified every which way possible any time I bring up the fact that they didn’t start dating until she was 18.
Instead of moving the goalposts like “well it’s still grooming and/or fucked up somehow”, or “not all brains are fully developed at 18” or “he’s subjectively too old” or whatever, be mad at the law and try to change it if you really disagree so much. Best of luck getting anywhere with that though, I don’t think it’s a popular opinion.
Sure, he just spent a year grooming her, there was nothing at all going on before that magical day. If you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
he just spent a year grooming her
Really? How so?
He didn’t, that’s the point. Relationships don’t work like that.
