The Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has for years overseen a secret police force in Gaza that conducted surveillance on everyday Palestinians and built files on young people, journalists and those who questioned the government, according to intelligence officials and a trove of internal documents reviewed by The New York Times.
The unit, known as the General Security Service, relied on a network of Gaza informants, some of whom reported their own neighbors to the police. People landed in security files for attending protests or publicly criticizing Hamas. In some cases, the records suggest that the authorities followed people to determine if they were carrying on romantic relationships outside marriage.
Hamas has long run an oppressive system of governance in Gaza, and many Palestinians there know that security officials watch them closely. But a 62-slide presentation on the activities of the General Security Service, delivered only weeks before the Oct. 7 attack on Israel, reveals the degree to which the largely unknown unit penetrated the lives of Palestinians.
. . .
Everyday Gazans were stuck — behind the wall of Israel’s crippling blockade and under the thumb and constant watch of a security force. That dilemma continues today, with the added threat of Israeli ground troops and airstrikes.
Yeah no shit Hamas is an authoritarian corrupt movement. That still doesn’t justify the genocide on Palestinians and the apartheid, occupation and systematic rape, abuse, torture, and also the Israeli mass surveillance that is used to blackmail people or even track them down to murder them.
If anything Hamas is the product of the systematic marginalization and humiliation of the Palestinians
If anything, it makes the current conflict even worse: Not only have gazans been forced to suffer from israeli occupation, they have also been systematically oppressed by Hamas and now they’re being slaughtered for their sake. I wouldn’t be surprised if this pushed more people towards Hamas or other terrorist organizations in the long run.
Yeah. There’s, sadly, room in the world for more than one murderous government. I also have no doubt that, if Hamas had the opportunity, they would kill all Israelis. But that is still no excuse for the ongoing slaughter the IDF is committing. An atrocity remains an atrocity.
Hamas wouldn’t bite the hand that feeds. Hamas is controlled opposition, directed by Israel, in Palestine to prevent a real opposition group wanting a two state solution from forming
Looks like there’s a multi-pronged attempt to shift the narrative to “see? Hamas is bad, so Israel is justified” today based on articles being posted.
People say the same thing literally any time there’s a negative story about Hamas. That isn’t how this story is framed. Israeli policy (blockade) and military are not portrayed as a relative good at all. It also speaks directly against a narrative by some Israelis that Palestinians bear collective responsibility for the actions of Hamas.
The idea that we must help Hamas cover up their crimes is a bad one, however well-intentioned. If they don’t want their crimes and misdeeds reported by the world, they should consider not committing any.
Some people can’t think critically nor handle any nuance. It needs to be black and white for them, which is why they can’t fathom a world where people recognize that Hamas is trash without also thinking Israel is justified.
The irony being that their thought process is identical to the people who claim any criticism of Israel is anti semitism.
The position that this article somehow benefits Gaza is undermined by the fact that all the sources are from the IDF. There is little difference between this article and your local newspaper uncritically reprinting the police departments press releases.
“Their unelected leadership was spying on Palestinians, hence we’re justified in mass murdering Palestinians to get them”
I mean, it’s the kind of excuse that worked for America’s invasion of Iraq to the point that even nowadays there are still plenty of useful idiots justifying the resulting estimated 1.4 million Iraqui dead with “Saddam was a murderous dictator” (and yet in all those years caused 1/100 of the deaths America did in far less time)
As long as people keep falling for any old bollocks then any old bollocks is exactly what they will be given
We can talk all day about how bad Israel is, but these guys aren’t good guys either
There were some idiots like that, but anyone who wasn’t just being completely reactionary knew they were idiots.
The only good people in this are all the innocent, the problem is they are the ones doing the most dying on both sides
Removed by mod
No.
Removed by mod
Literal terrorists? Gtfoh
Removed by mod
Still no. Hamas lied about the numbers. Gona have to realize that at some point, hamas lies about everything.
Removed by mod
This dipshit is probably an edgy teenager. Not even worth engaging with people like this
Jesus get lost kid
Removed by mod
😂😂
You’re just a stupid child, not even worth a counter argument. Go back to school little boy
Everyday Palestinians? What genius propagandist came up with that one? Israel doesn’t seem to make the distinction.
My thoughts exactly. Nearly everyone agrees that Hamas is bad; what we object to is the grossly excessive violence being applied to all Palestinians.
The NYT has been shown to be biased against Palestinians, so this, unfortunately, doesn’t surprise me anymore. I used to trust the NYT as one of the more trustworthy sources, but am reluctant to give them any traffic anymore. It feels like, at least in the US, the right-wing crazies have won because “mainstream media” (all media, frankly) really is starting to feel untrustworthy.
I strongly dislike nearly everything about this timeline.
I think it’s less “right wing” per se and more that the news networks are corporate conglomerates with a narrative they want to propagate.
They also want to access to the politicians, who are in turn beholden to their donors. The politicians won’t give them access unless the media are willing to also subjugate themselves to the donor class narratives.
I think it’s more about the money on politics and the ruling that corporations are people and money is free speech that is the problem.
I think the media is corporations, which advocative for neoliberal policies in general, and because they want access to the politicians they have to be on board drinking the donor kool aid.
Just an anecdote but I find this doesn’t align at all with what I’ve personally read from the NYT. I’ve been following their Gaza coverage pretty closely, and I really feel like it’s been highlighting the injustice of what’s going on quite well. Some of those articles describing the things happening to Palestinians literally brought tears to my eyes.
Their comment sections are pretty consistently full of genocide apologists flaming them for supposedly spreading Hamas propaganda too.
To be honest, I can somewhat understand that a major news outlet would want to avoid words like “genocide” even though I personally think there’s no doubt that it’s the right word to use. The debate around using these words is too toxic, and using them would quickly tip discourse even further into bullshit semantic arguments, in turn distracting from what’s being reported.
Everyday Palestinians = Hamas’ meat shields.
Everyday Palestinians = Israeli war crime victims.
They’re also victims of Hamas’ war crimes, because using civilians as shields and conducting military operations from civilian locations are also war crimes. If Hamas can even be accused of such, being a terror organization rather than a legitimate government.
Hamas is as legitimate a government as any other authoritarian government is.
Israel is certainly acting a terror organisation rather than a legitimate government these days.
Oh, look, a Look-over-there New York Times article about how it’s the merelly authoritarian on the “other” side that are worse than the full blown Genocidal Fascists murdering an entire population - men, women and children, lots and lots of children - whilst claiming they’re only going after said autoritarians.
I did NAZI that coming.
Read the article, it’s very informative for once.
The documents were provided to The News York Times by officials in Israel’s military intelligence directorate, who said they had been seized in raids in Gaza.
- None of it confirmed by secondary independent sources.
- Both writters of the article are Israeli and based in Israel.
- And the timing is convenint for Israel.
- Finally, lets not forget the New York Times’ very special track record of pro-Israel Propaganda.
So the sources for all that are Israeli IDF spooks, none of it is independently confirmed, the writters are Israelis in Israel, this newspaper has been caught not long ago printing pure Propaganda for Israel and the timing of all this “information” “coming out” is right smack when Israel is preparing to go into overdrive in their Genocide which is justified as being to “eliminate Hamas”.
Curiously if all of what Israel says is to be believed (including what they provided for this “article”), they’re killing Palestinian civilians in huge numbers to supposedly get rid of their oppressors, a level of doublespeak we hadn’t seen since Bush caused 1.4million Iraqi deads whilst claiming America was “freeing Iraqis from the murderous dictator Saddam Hussein”).
It’s funny that whilst originally I was inclined to believe the idea that Hamas are pretty straightforward authoritarians with a secret police and everything, after reading the article with a proper analyst’s eye (analysis of information being something I have professional experienced in) I have actually put that predisposition to believe it aside since that piece is written by people who are not even in a position to be unbiased, for a newspaper which is heavilly biased, anchored on paperwork provided by a single-source who are the spooks of the very army commiting Genocide and murdering children in cold blood in Gaza, and which of course has not been independently checked, and comes at a time when this type of story is exactly what the nation all of the above are biased in favour of would want to spread to reinforce their long running Propaganda messaging, so one can only conclude this hit piece almost certainly the most pure unadulterated Propaganda imaginable.
Regardless of your doubt, plus lengthy attempt to discredit the source and dissuade people from reading the article. It sounds not just plausible but likely. Sometimes motives, intentions and outcomes line up perfectly. As truth does. As always think critically and believe what makes sense to you personally
Since you’re a “propaganda expert” what would be the intention and desired outcome by the IDF releasing this?
Edit: added a question
Regardless of your doubt
Gullibility is not a virtue
When you get conflicting information on a crime scene, you gotta make judgment calls. To not find Israel guilty is being intellectually dishonest and ignoring reality
When you get conflicting information on a crime scene
When the crime scene is a mass grave and you’re getting “conflicting information” from the serial killer’s PR team
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.
This piece has so many elements present in typical pro-Israel Propaganda (the IDF source, the absence of independent validation of what the source provided, the shamelessly pro-Israel newspaper, the Israli nationals writing it in Israel, the neat dovetailing with long running Israeli Propaganda messaging) that anybody with even the least amount of Skepticism or Analytical Experience will conclude that it should be treated as Propaganda until proven otherwise rather than believed real until disproven.
You need to want really really hard to see a swan here to think that this is a swan rather than a duck.
Yea, none of it aligns perfectly with what appears to have happened in real life. Netanyahu is completely credible and not a dishonest war criminal. There is no internal conflict in Israel. You’re probably right.
Since you’re a “propaganda expert” what would be the intention and desired outcome by the IDF releasing this?
“Hamas is Evil, hence why we have to attack Rafah to get rid of them.”
I mean, “Hamas is Evil hence everything is morally acceptable to getting rid of Hamas” is the sole foundation and support for ever single evil action of Israel such as destroying hospitals killing medical personnel (“they’re Hamas”, “Hamas was there”, “there was a Hamas tunnel under it”), blow up entire blocks with 2000lb bombs (“we were targetting a Hamas operative”), blow up school playgrounds (“we were targetting a Hamas operative”) and so on.
The more Evil Hamas is made to look the more “Moral” justification the IDF has to do destroy and murder everything Palestinian claiming that it’s to “destroy Hamas”, as Netanyahu frequently says.
There is literally no other moral argument from Israel for their Genocide. These people aren’t even especially imaginative.
So this story is just adding another bit of cement on that very same structure supporting the actions “the most moral army in the World” and it’s not even especially important: it even has the wiff of Military Intelligence bureaucrats coming up with something to show the boss they’re doing some work and it getting published because the New York Times has no journalistic criteria at all when it comes to stories that portray pro-Israel in a good light (probably has no journalistic criteria at all for anything).
You need to be trying really, really hard to imitate the Three Wise Monkeys when it comes to Israel, to not yet have noticed that “we have to get rid of Evil Hamas” is their only justification for doing the most evil stuff imaginable.
Theirs is such a stupidly simple strategy that is painfully obvious for those with even the smallest amount of brains who aren’t hasbara sockpuppets, no need for “propanda expertise” (whatever that is).
So that’s why you believe this is propaganda versus a true account of what’s happening?
For someone so adamant in their conviction it comes across weak af. I am much more inclined to believe the Palestinians. Your wall of text does not negate that fact.
Israel has finally lost in the court of public opinion, no matter the amount of manipulation
Conviction?!
You’re clearly coming at it from the point of view of the indoctrinated - you pre-believe something (i.e. are prejudiced) and then seek a way to interpret reality to yield “conclusions” that match your conviction and are not at all even trying to analyse it rationally.
Any rational analysis of this “article” in the current context and given the past explicit biases and actions of those who participated in making it will yield the conclusion that what’s in there has a high probablility of being Propaganda and cannot be trusted to be truthfull.
It really boils down a pretty old principle: “Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”. I totally understand defaulting to believe anything sourced from the IDF and delivered via the NYT in the past, before all this started, but at this point after all they said that turned out to be outright lies along with what they did using such lies as justification, we’re very much on the domain of “shame on you” when it comes to such sources as the New York Times and the IDF.
Does it mean this article is with absolute certainty Propaganda and not actually true? Of course not: there is a small probability that it’s not Propaganda, since like “Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction” there is a core of believability to it (which curiously is both like a true story AND like the best Propaganda), so only time will tell if it’s mostly true or if, like the “weapons of mass destruction”, it is just Propaganda.
The rational take on this article (so, not the take of those driven by something irrational like conviction, which is why I so often emphasied Skepticism and Analysis on my posts on this) is to treat it as having zero informational value, unless independent information arises that clarifies it.
You keep mentioning Iraq’s supposed Weapons of Mass Destruction justification which Bush spewed out. You might be surprised not everyone believed it. War is a racket, we know this. It is common knowledge not a propaganda conspiracy.
This article may be propaganda (highly doubt it though).but the Motives and intentions line up perfectly so yea I’m gonna believe the religious zealots are acting as religious zealots.
The NYT is garbage state propaganda with no more journalistic credibility than the Enquirer
The NYT definitely has problems, but saying it has the same credibility as the Enquirer just makes you look ill informed. 🤡
Please. Of course the NYT are far from infallible, but “no more journalistic credibility than the Enquirer” is just a ridiculous statement. There’s a lot to criticize about their reporting on Gaza, but at the same time they’ve published some of the rawest and most eye-opening coverage of the situation in Gaza I’ve come across.
While I certainly agree to an extent, They’re not quite as bad as the National Enquirer, that’s ridiculous. I read the Archive version and it is very detailed and informative. Describes how Hamas, who we know is paid by Israel, spied and monitored Palestinians., to control opposition and prevent a two state solution. It’s no wonder everything turned out the way it did, Israel wanted it to. Bring on your downvotes bots
Edit:autocorrect
You ‘know’ they’re paid by Isreal? I’m guessing you know this because of totally real sources based on evidence…? No? Oh a feeling in your tummy that you want to be true because it makes you feel better to avoid reality and imagine the world as black and white? OK.
This better?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/
There are many more articles but it’s obvious you’re arguing in bad faith. Does that make your tummy fuzzy?
Yes they are arguing that by allowing aid info Gaza this props up hamas they are right wing people saying that Isreal should have been harder on hamas - you probably think Isreal should allow more aid into Palestine so either you want to prop up hamas, you don’t really belive this logic or consistency doesn’t matter to you and you’ll use any excuse to criticize Isreal.
You’re simply arguing in bad faith and dishonesty
Also you forgot to switch to your alt account
What are you blathering about?
Feign ignorance, move goalposts. I don’t debate liars
Running a hamas hit piece during Israel’s genocide. You know it’s going to be legacy media.
Regardless of how bad Israel is, Hamas is trash. Are we just supposed to pretend or ignore this fact because we are disgusted by Israel?
Americans have to take a side and treat everything like sports, didn’t you know?
How do you know the poster is American?
Removed by mod
The article talks about how a lot of what was going on was “largely unknown.” This is quite literally new information were hearing about in this piece.
Everyday we hear about the horrors Israel is inflicting on Palestine, that’s certainly a “water is wet” thing right now. I hope you don’t think they should stop reporting on this.
“This just in: the run of the mill authoritarians on the ‘other’ side are bad” while a new bunch of Nazis are aiming at a new Holocaust of an entire population.
It all has the heavy stink of the pro-Holocaust propagandists desperatelly trying to distract public opinion with a bit of whataboutism.
What are you talking about? The article includes new information that has been uncovered, it’s far from “Hamas is also still bad”. Do you think they shouldn’t report new information on Hamas?
Hamas is just Israel secret service in Palestine
what did you expect from a group created and funded by israeli intelligence to dismantle peaceful pro peace palestinian leftist organizations?
I know they were funded in part by Israel to destroy Palestinian unity and give Israel an excuse to kill more Palestinians and take their land, but was Hamas really created by Israel?
Maybe Israel didn’t found Hamas as such but they certainly nurtured it like a baby bird.
they basically created it in the same way us created al qaeda
A legal fiction needed to function as a scapegoat for US trials in absentia?
Or are we talking about a tool of the East Asia Cold War, intended to operate as a front for paramilitary operations in the Russian and Chinese back country?
This argument is made a lot in conspiracy circles and anti isreal communutues, however the argument comes from the fact that Isreal paused prior conflicts for humanitarian or political reasons instead of actually destroying them with superior force. The thing you want them to do now, go easy and end the conflict early is also what you’re complaining about them doing before.
Shlomo Brom, a former deputy to Israel’s national security adviser, told the New York Times that an empowered Hamas helped Netanyahu avoid negotiating over a Palestinian state, saying the division of the Palestinians helped him make the case that he had no partner for peace in the Palestinians, thus avoiding pressure for peace talks that could lead to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. (source)
Damn those anti-israeli national security advisors.
Did you read the article? Exactly as I said the argument that is that allowing aid info Palestine helped prop up hamas.
The same people that complain Isreal does not let aid in push this argument based on them letting too much aid in.
Why do you insist on conflating funding a terrorist organization with cash with providing humanitarian aid via food and medicine?
Because that’s what this argument is, they’re talking about UNRWA and similar groups that are officially separate from hamas but in practice are largely controlled by hamas.
Do you really not follow any of this? You have such strong opinions for someone that doesn’t seem to follow the big talking points at all. I get if you want to disagree but not knowing the arguments make you seem very uninformed.
Paywall and the archive doesn’t work…
But it sounds like this was pretty tame compared to other countries.
Shit, Israel goes into Gaza and abducts people for torture and long imprisonment without charges based on social media and claimed statements to informants…
And this says Hamas followed people to see if they were having an affair?
And kept files on people? Some journalists?
Hasn’t Israel killed more journalists than even Russia the last couple years?
I don’t see what’s surprising or concerning here. And I don’t see where the article is getting their info either. Are they just repeating IDF propaganda again?
Nevermind, I googled it.
The author is from multiple propaganda outlets in Israel, and belongs to pro-Israel “think tank”…
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/experts/adam-rasgon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy
Although WINEP plays down its links to Israel and claims that it provides a ‘balanced and realistic’ perspective on Middle East issues, this is not the case. In fact, WINEP is funded and run by individuals who are deeply committed to advancing Israel’s agenda … Many of its personnel are genuine scholars or experienced former officials, but they are hardly neutral observers on most Middle East issues and there is little diversity of views within WINEP’s ranks."[43]
Not only funded by AIPAC, but started be people with a bunch of AIPAC connections.
The Israeli Shin Bet does pretty much the same domestic espionage and there’s rightwing patrols in ultra orthodox neighborhoods as well monitoring for illicit relationships etc.
Thanks for the research, the fediverse is so much better than reddit.
I wouldn’t say that.
Not only did Reddit have Poppingkream, but they could actually ban people and do something about vote manipulation.
There’s more than a few accounts on here that if you get into an argument with them, you’ll always see 3-5 down votes immediately, and they’ll get an equal amount of up votes as soon as they post.
Because on some apps it takes two clicks to sign into a new account, and some people care enough about votes to switch over and over again.
On Reddit they’d crack down on that. Eventually giving an IP ban.
Here trolls have a bunch of options for random instances to make a new account and go right back at it.
Lemmy has its own problems, even if they’re not the same as reddits.
The cool thing is that votes don’t mean anything in the comment section here.
I’d be more surprised by a country that’s didn’t spy on it’s population.
The archive link is good, but archive.is is having performance problems today.
And it’s not the first time NYT has run a direct propaganda piece. They have to do this once in a while for the Israeli government to reassert its hegemony over the narrative.
Yes, I know mediabiasfactcheck.com says NYT is excellent but that’s just a reflection on mediabiasfactcheck.com.
Oh look, the NYT manufacturing consent for the military industrial complex. What a surprise.
Two things can be true at once. Israel can be violating human rights with their war in Gaza, and Hamas can be an oppressive piece of shit.
This is a false equivalency. The NYT has historically been complicit in manufacturing consent for US foreign policy interests with coverage framing and agenda-setting. By choosing what stories to cover and how to cover them, they can promote certain perspectives while downplaying others. Another user in this thread already pointed out that the author of this article is a pro-Israel propagandist.
they can promote certain perspectives while downplaying others
Exactly, and they have the reach to be very effective at controlling the narrative.
“What is taking place is a systematic effort to distort the image of Palestinian journalists as being incapable of trustworthiness and integrity, simply because we cover the human rights violations that the Palestinian people undergo on a daily basis at hands of the Israeli army,” Salem wrote today on Facebook and Twitter, in a thread that has been widely retweeted, 5000 times this morning.
The case stands in stark contrast to the three Jewish reporters, Ethan Bronner, Isabel Kershner, and David Brooks, who carried on writing about the issue for the New York Times even when their children were enlisted in the Israeli Defense Forces.
The Israel lobby is massively invested in propaganda, like NGO monitor and the above linked “organization Honest Reporting, which exists to attack the Palestinian narrative in the west”. Not to mention ads on google, youtube, controlling the narrative on facebook, google again, twitter… the list goes on. And yeah, there’s app for that.
yeah nobody remind em of the WMD fiasco
Has NYT only just figured out now that the nuance was never in Hamas being “the good guys” or not?
Hamas may be better than Israel right now in that they’re not actively pulling a genocide, but nobody apart from Hamas thinks Hamas are really the good guys in this - but Hamas being a horrid government doesn’t then somehow justify Israel’s genocide against the “Everyday Palestinians” Hamas are oppressing.Governments spy on their own citizens? This is more shocking than learning Ivy League unis give preference to legacy students
No shit. By the way I’m not defending netanyahu. He’s a pos.
The Palestinians will be better off with hamas gone thankfully. High price for voting in a terror group though.
A price paid mostly by those who didn’t even have a chance to vote.
Oh my god that’s awful.
Nearly as bad as an agency that does that to their own people and that of another nation.
Not seeing a lot of similar articles about Shin Bet though. Wonder why…
