Never thought, that I would have to post this. While reading my autism medical documents, from when I was 6 yo (I’m now in my late teens), my father found some logic deficits mentioned. I never knew about it. I seem inteligent, barely do any work for school and still do great. I’m the best in class at maths and some otger subjects. I even solved this and got 110 (I know, online iq tests aren’t reliable, but I think it would have diagnosed intelectual dissability properly). My only logic issues are sudokus (I did them when I was around 6, stopped and now I’m bad at them, practically learning again) and physics at school (not terrible, but below average).
Do I have ID or not, should I test my iq professionally and how does intelectual dissability even show?
And of course for the dramatic effect: “What the hell?”
Edit: I know this is poorly written, am to lazy to edit.
Another edit: Forgot to mention, I’m known to be smart in most groups, some exceptions think I’m stupid, but most of them aren’t really academically sucessful.
I am a stranger on the Internet, so please take my input with a grain of salt.
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A lot can change from the age of six. You may test differently now, if you were to be reevaluated.
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Good academic performance, especially in standardized test, might demonstrate that you are intelligent, but they do not preclude other deficiencies.
For example, your post is disorganized, riddled with errors, and difficult to parse. You said, “am lazy to edit.” This might indicate that you have difficulty communicating clearly, perhaps emerging from hyperactivity or focus issues. Autism often comes with communication issues.
Other people can’t see your standardized test scores on your face, but they can judge you immediately by how you communicate. That might explain why people call you “stupid.”
I might be completely off the mark. If you do find that communication is a difficult point for you, then the good news is you can practice anytime. Just talking with others, getting older, and building experience will bring you up to speed with diligence.
Finally, there is a negative social stigma to intellectual disability. Try not to buy into it too much. I used to teach 12 year olds how to read. Some people never learn how. They were all intelligent, they just need to step back a few grade levels and have a helping hand. Sometimes you do need to reach out for help.
Most people don’t call me stupid. My father found my apparent logic defficiencies in some old medical documents. I usually write better, I just didn’t really try doing good.
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Short version: It’s BS.
Longer version: it’s a report from years ago and an IQ test. You should not focus on the IQ. It doesn’t matter. The diagnosis, well, it’s medical and pathologizing. The criterias for autism in the DSM 4? 5? aren’t that good. Nowadays, we understand autism in a complete different way and intelligence isn’t part of it. What you will find written in the report is based on the point of view of neurotypical looking at and comparing something different. It’s a one way assumption. This isn’t the reality. They have to take in account how the autists live and experience the life. This is very different and shows that the criterias aren’t as accurate as people thought.
You should not take this assumption about logic in the document too seriously.
This is doing echo to my own experience. I had some difficulties learning part of math and physics. Many teachers and professionals said that I would never get it. I would never do anything in my life. I did a formal IQ test and my score went above scale. But, I still struggled in part of math and physics. Later, I had the chance to empower myself. At this point, I understood why I struggled. I’m self-taught. So, the teachers and other professionals were wrong and the learning system wasn’t adapted to my style of learning.
I started over. I respected my own style of learning. I didn’t struggle.
What is in a document when you were 6 yo is a statement made looking through a disforming prism. I don’t think you should give it too much credit.
The other point like for sudoku, you are using a lot of energy for many other things at your age. This was another issue. I used my energy masking and being with others. I didn’t use it to resolve puzzles. (I feel old writing this.)
I think I have a good IQ score (I was just tested incorectly), but I’m mostly scared, because I don’t know what logic deficit even is.
Deficit of logic doesn’t make any sense. It’s a normative statement and the normalization of the human. It doesn’t aline with the neurodiversity paradigm. It also doesn’t take in account the environmental factor that influence your capacities in logic.
Well thanks. I don’t perfectly understand what you mean by “enviromental factor”, is it the education or something else?
An environmental factor is what have an influence on a human. For an easy example, the noise of a car is an environmental factor for noise hypersensitivity. Other example outside of Autism, pollution is an environmental factor for cancer.
For some autistics, being with friends is a factor to mask. Environmental factors influence your energy capacities, your behaviors, etc. this have an influence on your logic capacities. For example, an autistic has noise hypersensitivity. The noise in the classroom will have an influence on the cognitive capacities (like logic).
I just read this by Kieran Rose and it made me think about what you wrote:
So much of the autism narrative is a lack of reflective practice and critical thinking on the part of non-Autistic observers with all the power.
Well, it might be. I would be happier if I knew what was happening during testing, if I was even properly tested and what else happened then.
I would caution your and other people’s perception of your intelligence as having significance. Doing well academically (especially pre-college) and thinking that this equals intelligence can be a bit of a trap. I, along with other high functioning friends, also did well academically and many people, teachers, peers, etc all viewed us as intelligent - the problem is, we understood expectations and how to create a mask and personal systems which allowed our brains to succeed in school. Entering college, that all changed for us. The expectations changed and the system changed- everything I created for myself to succeed no longer applied. I went from a 4.0 high school student in all advanced classes to dropping out of college the first semester. I saw peers who did terribly in high school thrive in college. I saw how they easily formed new connections and found support which allowed them to continue where I stumbled.
I would ask yourself what value you are expecting out of being viewed as intelligent and why you feel you might need that label applied to you. Growing up, I personally put a lot of effort into being seen as smart to make up for my ASD thinking I could outsmart it or something. Being 30+ now, I no longer really care how people view me- I just care that they are kind and respectful.
I don’t care about other’s perception of my inteligence. I’m just worried for my intelectual ability.
I think you could benefit from focusing less on these medical definitions and more on trying to figure out your own personal needs and boundaries - those are what really matter. I know we need to sometimes surrender to these definitions for the sake of getting support (E: which knowing our needs and boundaries better, informs better), but that it in itself is a form of gatekeeping (not yours, the medical and social institutions), that we shouldn’t have to apply to our own thinking of ourselves.
Sorry to info dump, but these are a few links that might help you think about things a little differently:
https://www.drakemusic.org/blog/nim-ralph/understanding-disability-part-6-the-radical-model/
https://www.neurodiverging.com/what-is-internalized-ableism-neurodivergent-people-need-to-know/
https://www.autisticparentsuk.org/post/overcoming-internalised-ableism
https://web.archive.org/web/20230605065733/https://ollibean.com/intelligence-is-an-ableist-concept/
https://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/23/ableist-word-profile-intelligence/
I’m not ableist to myself (at least I think so), but I always thought of myself as inteligent/good in logical subjects, so now I don’t know what to belive.
We all have internalised ableism, because all people are born and raised in an ableist society which heavily impacts how we see and think about disability. It doesn’t make you a bad person, you don’t have to mean it or even be aware of it, it just is. Learning to understand and recognise it will help make your relationship with and understanding of yourself better (as well as why society is the way it is).
I really recommend you read some of those articles I linked, and start to think about why it is important to you to think of yourself as intelligent (or - why do you worry about being considered unintelligent? According to you this isn’t something that even happens to you often, so why does it even matter?), why does this vague note a doctor made in a file some time ago change how you see yourself (do they really know you better? What does “logic deficit” even mean? Does it even matter if you’d not noticed it until now?), does any of it even really matter?
This is a work in progress, just sit with these questions and information, even if it brings discomfort, that’s part of growing.
Well, it could impact my future life. Where I live, I have to be medically asessed for any goverment provided license and for a job. I would probably easily pass any tests, but you have to send them your medical record, so I could end up in this situation.
Edit: I read all the articles (if I haven’t missed any) I understand them, I know, what you make from your live matters way more, than your inteligence, but it still is a statistic, valid or not, it has an impact on your life, if not directly (by being valid), indirectly (your rights).
While expecting and worrying about facing ableism from the system and society at large is a legitimate and valid concern, I think that in this case, if by this point you’ve not only been unaware of any learning difficulty, but also not treated for one, it’s not something that will show up in your records or be significant enough to make any difference. I think if you just leave it as what it is - a single remark made years ago that has had no impact on your life until you found out about it recently, it’s likely to never have any further impact on you. Though keep in mind that your support needs might change with time, and if it does become relevant, getting the help you need might overweigh the potential complications having any formal diagnosis on your record might bring.
I agree with your edit, that the perception of our own, others, and others’ of our so called intelligence can have real life impacts, but that doesn’t make it right that that’s the case, and we don’t have to play along within an artificial framework that is harmful to us if we don’t want to (I appreciate and mentioned before that in medical settings we might not have a choice, but I’m talking about how we think of ourselves, others, and the world around us in a more general sense). The more of us decline to participate or give it any weight, the less power the system has.
Bottom line - if you feel like you have an issue that you want to investigate further, or are struggling with certain things, go ahead and seek support. If you feel like you were doing perfectly fine before you found out about this note in a file, put it to the back of your mind and keep on living as you were, the likelihood of anyone but you ever finding out about it, unless you bring it up (and even then, unless you end up perusing diagnosis and support) is tiny.
E: I hope this isn’t coming across as dismissive of your concerns, I can understand where you’re coming from, I used to have similar concerns, but what helped me as I’ve grown older is the understanding that I don’t have to conform to a society that already generally rejects me whether I play by its rules or not, and so I started prioritising my own needs over its expectations.
I have previously had problems with this, like in primary school, when the documents were still valid, I was known as “the retarded kid” by the teachers. That’s also why I didn’t want my high school to know about my autism, but professors still, even now, that they know I have autism respect me, because they don’t know about since they don’t know as much as the primary school did.
they don’t know as much as the primary school did
Or maybe they knew more? Because they were seeing you there as is, and they didn’t see these issues, nor did you, nor do they seem to interfere with your daily life, so perhaps the teachers in your primary school were just ableist assholes who didn’t care enough to learn about you beyond a possible difficulty you were having (or one they were having), which is perfectly normal for any kid that age, but especially ND kids, before they categorised you as not worth their time (I’m sorry they called you that).
In the grand scheme of things, no one ever in your life, unless you show them the document or this post, is likely to ever find out about that note from primary school. Even if there is a copy kept outside of the school, they wouldn’t keep stuff like that forever, and there’s definitely no “main file of your life” where this will be.
Maybe it’s worth seeing this as the traumatic past experience that it was, process that, learn from it, and accept yourself a little more. Those teachers had their own issues, or were just shitty people, definitely not worthy educators whose opinions you should take to heart. I know it hurts and has a lasting impact because I had teachers like that, and decades later I still remember some of their comments, but I don’t let it impact me anymore because I know their opinions of me are worthless because they had no idea who I was or what I was like, or what my actual struggles were, and they definitely couldn’t have predicted where I would have ended up in different points in my life.
Don’t let them define you.
Thanks. By saying, they knew more, I ment, about the medical document (since they were the SpEd docs). Most of them never mentioned it directly, but the physics teacher did (since I’m not that good at it) and I felt the disrespect of some other teachers as well, but classmates respected me.
Edit: forgot to mention, the primary school knew more about my meltdowns, that I now mask at school.
“logic deficits” does not mean ID, and without further information on what they observed of you at age six, i don’t think we can draw any conclusions of that. furthermore as many others have commented already, people change, and you are not the same you that you were when you were six. you may have been slower to develop certain skills as a small child, but be good at those same skills now. that’s just growing up.
I remember, I was reading well when I was around 4, so I didnt have any inteligence deficit. I can’t say anything about the test, because I don’t remember it. I wrote some more info I know in another answer.
I guess your confusion come from the difference from your expectations (being smart) and what you read (logic deficit)
Peoples around you say you’re smart but do they say you’re logic?
Intelligence is hard to define but seem more like a spectrum to me: someone could have very good logic but very bad memory for example.
Also it’s not because you read it that it’s true. What the test exactly mean by “logic deficit”? How you was when you passed it? How old is it? You changed since you’re six.
The most important question is: Is it really worrying you, would you actually feel better with a confirmation/disconfirmation?
Well, I would be happy if I got a disconfirmation of the logic deficit. I think this is how intelectual disability was called back then (the name changes a lot), so it just means inteligence.
Edit: Forgot to mention, I don’t remember how I was tested, so I can’t really say anythig about it. I’m good at math without serious learning, so I belive my logic is good.
I don’t know how or where you can pass such test. If you think it will make you feel better you should go for it. Just keep in mind it won’t change what you are, only how you see what you are.
I don’t think I can still do the test, because it is a primary school special ed identification test, but I could go to a professional iq test, which I think tests for the same thing.
It’s possible that your father observed something unexpected in your behavior or the way you handled a situation at a young age, which prompted him to seek medical advice. However given your own accounts, it seems like whatever concerns he noted might not be affecting you significantly now.
It might have been a passing phase or something you’ve outgrown, or might have been your father being overly concerned for you and seeing an issue where there was none. Perhaps discussing this with your father or a healthcare professional who has access to your medical history could provide more clarity.
He found it in old medical documents
Reading comprehension is clearly not my strong suit today.
That said I think the general idea still stands. You don’t sound like you’ve struggled with a learning disability so it’s probably best to ask a doctor with access to your medical history what that was about, if it is something that worries you.
Where could I even find a doctor to identify it? If I go to the doctor and they diagnose me, I wouldn’t be able to get a job, any state provided license and a lot more. Then there is a school psychologist, that would tell professors and my academic sucess would probably fall.
What? What kind of totalitarian regime do you live in?
You don’t necessarily have to disclose medical history to a workplace, and I’d advice against it if you believe your medical history contains something you believe the workplace would use against you. I can’t speak for state provided licenses though, but at least in my country (Sweden) it depends on the challenges you face. I can’t recall if you’ve mentioned your age at all, I think you were a teenager? So if we’re generous and say that if you haven’t noticed this supposed intellectual disability in the past 18-ish years of your life, it probably isn’t anything severe, if anything at all.
“Logic deficits” doesn’t really tell me much. It could be literally anything.
Yes, but you have to complete a health inspection to get a job. I also don’t fully understand logic deficits, I just suspected it to be inteligence. My mother told me, i didn’t want ro answer questions at the psychological examination and nobody cared enough to force or manipulate me to answer questions.
Yes, but you have to complete a health inspection to get a job.
I guess this depends on what kind of job you’re after. I know for example that they are really restrictive with who gets to join the military in my country. Doing a full health inspection for any job is definitely not standard here.
We have to do it for any job.
I assume groups may not think you’re smart as they notice you don’t adapt to them. That’s an autism indicator of sorts, and not based on academic intelligence.
My apparent logic deficits are mentioned in my old autism related medical documents.
I tested as being above-normal on average,
even though I’m below-normal in both writing & arithmetic.
My average-score was above-normal ( since altered by massive concussions ) because what I was good-at I was really good-at, compared with normals.
Having an average that is far above normal, in academics, doesn’t mean that all one’s capabilities are above normal.
That is a significant difference between the idea, & the ideology, of the “academic superior” mind, vs the actuality of minds being made of SO many dimensions that deficits/defects are normal.
Read Thomas Armstrong’s book “Seven Kinds of Smart, revised edition” ( revised is 9 intelligences, but they kept the same title ), and see how social-intelligence was left out from IQ testing because it wasn’t a male intelligence ( implied by the quoted evidence ).
It’s a book that all parents & teachers, and learning-disabled people, ought read.
Please dig into it, even if it means a trip to your local library.
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Wow, I will look into it. I’m not worried about my actual intelligence. I’m worried about another metric, that will make me discriminated in medical and educational settings.
