I know the right-wing infosphere has brainwashed multiple members of my family. I don’t have a way to check the percentage of people I’ve known in my life that are now brainwashed. I know that my life would have been lesser had I not met every single one of them. I don’t see the people in my life as a purity test, they’re still the same people. What happened to them is a reminder that we must first and foremost defeat fascism, the political ideology.
What the – and I simply can’t emphasize this enough – fuck does it have to do with PuRiTy TeStInG if I don’t want to associate or spend time with people whose political ideologies would fucking literally have me stripped of human rights if not outright murdered because of my gender and/or gender identity? What sort of an obligation do I have to keep those people in my life if they have publicly stated opinions that make it clear that I may not actually be physically safe in their presence?
And no, I don’t have a way to “check the percentage of people I’ve known in my life that are now brainwashed” either you utter cabbage, I just don’t knowingly associate with extremists conservatives let alone literal Nazis. If somebody I know turns out to have fallen off the deep end, I just don’t keep associating with them. See, no magical PuRiTy TeStEr required?
So yes, great, good on you for being so accepting of people, I unironically commend you for that, but even though I have no idea who you are or what your background is, this comment – like a lot of the hugbox let’s defeat the nazis with love bullshit I’ve seen earlier – definitely feels like it’s coming from someone who’s got no experience with being on the receiving end of bigotry or misogyny. Easy to be a bit more understanding and accepting of Nazis when you wouldn’t be one of the first people they’d shove in a camp.
Edit: and I’m saying this as an avowed lover of hugboxes of various kinds. “Cute but will fight”
Not everyone has the luxury of knowing no one who has been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere. A person not having anyone who has partially or fully adopted fascist ideology in their life is not something to brag about. Nor should that be the goal.
People have families. People have childhood friends they’ve known their whole lives. People have classmates with the same or similar schedule as them. People have adult friends in their social circles. People have co-workers at their jobs. People cannot control the political ideology of the people around them. If someone is informed enough to know exactly who in their life is currently a fascist and can disassociate exactly from those people then good for them. The majority of people will not be able to do that. Nor will doing that solve the problem.
When the response to this
The people in our lives need love, not violence.
is this
The people in my life aren’t Nazis
That’s a purity test. Your argument is to sort ourselves by political ideology.
Easy to be a bit more understanding and accepting of Nazis when you wouldn’t be one of the first people they’d shove in a camp.
I am a Jewish, atheist, social democrat, lesbian, trans woman. I’m white and pre-transition, so I get to benefit from white male privilege for now. But if the fascists could put me in a death camp they would.
If a person is in danger from someone in their life and can dissociate from that person, then by all means dissociate from them.
The way to defeat fascism is to defeat the ideas that make up the political ideology. Isolating ourselves does nothing to forward this goal.
You’re still missing the point here. I never said I keep tabs on everyone at all times just so I can pull the eject handle if they turn Nazi, just that if it does turn out somehow that someone is a Nazi, that is when I pull the eject handle.
In any case, my argument absolutely is that I’m going to sort my friends by political ideology – and no, I don’t give people forms to fill out or install cameras in their homes. Doesn’t mean everyone has to think exactly like me, but “no Nazis” doesn’t feel like it should be a high bar. Sure, maybe this does nothing to help solve the situation but I have no interest in having to be buddies with them, let alone loving them – better people are welcome to it, but I’m done, I’d jump off a cliff if I had to listen to yet another “rational” fascist wannabe explain why my whole gender is inferior to his and then dismiss me when I get ANGY. Call it purity testing all you want, but for me and I suspect a lot of people this is self care
You’re still missing the point here. I never said I keep tabs on everyone at all times just so I can pull the eject handle if they turn Nazi, just that if it does turn out somehow that someone is a Nazi, that is when I pull the eject handle.
Not everyone in that scenario will be able to pull the ejection handle. A person cannot be expected to quit their job if they realize a co-worker is a fascist. And even if everyone could it would not solve fascism.
Pulling fascists out of their echo chambers and information silos is a job. It’s a slow, linear process, where one person is helped at a time, that is outpaced by the efficiency of the righ-wing infosphere. The fascists in people’s lives do in fact need love. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to do that. People should consider their own safety. What is reasonable is that we acknowledge the few solutions that we have. If a person has fascists in their life, has the know-how, and is willing to put in that work to help them then that is a good thing. edit: typo
Hey, sorry to necro-post. But now it’s just you and me and all the internet tough guys have left. I appreciate your point of view and I am curious about something you said.
How can the “political ideology” of fascism every “be defeated”? Even accepting that you can “defeat” an ideology, and that fascism is even meaningfully thought of as an ideology at all (which I don’t think is a helpful lens), fascism works, and it works because of elements of human psychology that we can’t simply get rid of. People will always be able to enlist the support of others by throwing vulnerable people under the bus. How is that an ideology that can be defeated? Surely we have to address the conditions that allow human psychology to be exploited in such a way, to help people empower themselves and not feel the fear that makes hatred appealing in the first place.
Fascism is a collective puzzle that has to be solved collectively. Humans are not necessarily predisposed to fail or succeed this puzzle. Fascism takes advantage of human tribalism, but any person is still capable of rationalizing that fascism is not in either their self-interest or a larger collective self-interest. Fascism is self-destructive.
Fascists have to make good on their promise to eliminate the out-groups they demonize. In order to stay in power, the fascists have to keep dividing a country’s population into new in-groups and out-groups. The subjective hierarchies they construct and adhere to are based on unattainable ideals. If this process is not stopped externally, the fascists eventually have to kill everyone. This includes the fascists drinking the flavor-aid.
The only way for humanity to survive fascism is to educate ourselves and each other about these self-destructive ideologies. That everyone is imperfect and everyone deserves to live no matter where they fall on subject hierarchies. Anyone who is seriously considering fascism as means of self-preservation can conclude that this ideology will lead to their own destruction and the destruction of the people they care about. Fascism logically contradicts it’s own false promises of security and prosperity. Once people understand this, people will then be open to other ideologies to solve their problems that do not involve demonizing groups of people.
People of course have to be given complete information as part of their education on fascism and other self-destructive ideologies. If all a person gets is fascist propaganda, as is happening in the US, then it shouldn’t be surprising when people stuck in echo chambers become fascists.
Ideologies can work as far as convincing people to adopt the ideology. However fascism does not work as far as solving the economic problems that drive people to look for solutions in the first place. No amount of genocide of a society’s existing population improves a person’s material conditions in that society. That kind of genocide is likely to eventually destabilize the society that is committing the genocide. The human psychology that can make us all susceptible to fascism does not prevent us from seeing it for what it is, inherently self-destructive. The human population destroys itself as part of implementing fascism.
There will always be con artists that try to demonize people to get what they want. But if people know that not no amount of demonizing can put food on the table or keep people safe they aren’t going to fall for it.
Not to blow you off, but maybe create a new post to continue this discussion and send me a link if you want my thoughts specifically. This post’s comment section got glowy.
Responsibility implies action. The majority of people in our country who have been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere haven’t done anything. If people are physically attacked by someone, they should defend themselves. But thinking fascist thoughts isn’t a violation of the social contract of tolerance.
Many of them don’t realize what they are voting for. Even if a person could identify the people who knowingly vote for fascism this information does us no good. Acting preemptively on that information subverts what’s left of our democracy, which is still our most effective tool against fascism. Engaging in that kind of political violence makes it harder to resit fascism. Acting retroactively on that information is an exercise in revenge which does nothing to resist fascism. Violence doesn’t inherently make a person a fascist, but it is our least effective tool.
If they don’t realize who they’re voting for then why are they voting?
Acting on who someone votes for is not preemptive, and revenge does a good amount to resist fascism. We’ve seen what happens when people roll over and do nothing, and look where we are now?
Anyone who cannot see the obvious lies of the GOP is so dumb that I don’t mind lumping them in with all the people who vote red for other reasons.
The bottom line is, I refuse to absolve these people of any responsibility. They refuse to take responsibility for their ignorance, their hatred, and/or their glee at other people’s suffering. If you exercise the power to vote, that comes with the responsibility of educating yourself about what you’re voting on. Anything else is an incredible abuse of power. If you want to stay in your own little bubble and ignore the outside world, then you don’t get to subject the rest of us to your vote. These people are hurting us. Removing education opportunities. Killing public transport. Enabling corruption. Appointing phony judges. Polluting the planet. Stealing from us. Literally killing us. I refuse to let that slide.
Anyone who cannot see the obvious lies of the GOP is so dumb that I don’t mind lumping them in with all the people who vote red for other reasons.
Information silos aren’t an intelligence test. Anyone who has only false information will come to incorrect conclusions.
The bottom line is, I refuse to absolve these people of any responsibility.
Whether a person should be held to account for their voting is a moot point as acting on the information presents the same issues I raised in my argument earlier. I believe people should not be held to account for their vote. If all the fascists did was vote we would be in no danger. I take issue with fascists who will do more violent things than just vote.
If you want to stay in your own little bubble and ignore the outside world, then you don’t get to subject the rest of us to your vote.
The problem is the people who are brainwashed do not know this. People are trapped in information silos via their ignorance. That’s how information silos work.
If Hawley is right, then the alt-right’s constituency isn’t a tiny fringe. It’s about 11 million Americans.
The wrong thing to conclude from Hawley’s data is that there’s a massive number of people who are active participants in the alt-right. Last year’s Charlottesville rally only had several hundred participants; this year’s DC sequel isn’t expected to be orders of magnitude larger.
The study is from 2018 but I think it’s still relevant even when taking account everything that’s happened since Jan 6th. The total number of self-identifying fascists in the worst case scenario could not currently exceed 11 million Americans. Even in the worst case scenario, the total number of self-identifying fascists is small compared to the US population, which is somewhere between 330 to 340 million people. The total number of self-identifying fascists, is probably at most only a few million people, maybe fewer. The right-wing infosphere’s ability to garner tens of millions of votes, despite spreading the ideas held by a small fraction of the population, is what makes it so dangerous. That’s why spreading true information is so important.
Condemning everyone who voted Trump to political violence is self-defeating. With that strategy we are effectively creating tens of millions of enemies.
edit: This is in response to the above comment’s edit. Political violence is preemptive if it’s done before a fascist takeover and it’s revenge if done after a fascist takeover. If the fascists takeover has already been completed then the revenge isn’t about resisting it. Political violence will not deter fascists. We already know capital punishment doesn’t deter violent crime.
I know the right-wing infosphere has brainwashed multiple members of my family. I don’t have a way to check the percentage of people I’ve known in my life that are now brainwashed. I know that my life would have been lesser had I not met every single one of them. I don’t see the people in my life as a purity test, they’re still the same people. What happened to them is a reminder that we must first and foremost defeat fascism, the political ideology.
What the – and I simply can’t emphasize this enough – fuck does it have to do with PuRiTy TeStInG if I don’t want to associate or spend time with people whose political ideologies would fucking literally have me stripped of human rights if not outright murdered because of my gender and/or gender identity? What sort of an obligation do I have to keep those people in my life if they have publicly stated opinions that make it clear that I may not actually be physically safe in their presence?
And no, I don’t have a way to “check the percentage of people I’ve known in my life that are now brainwashed” either you utter cabbage, I just don’t knowingly associate with extremists conservatives let alone literal Nazis. If somebody I know turns out to have fallen off the deep end, I just don’t keep associating with them. See, no magical PuRiTy TeStEr required?
So yes, great, good on you for being so accepting of people, I unironically commend you for that, but even though I have no idea who you are or what your background is, this comment – like a lot of the hugbox let’s defeat the nazis with love bullshit I’ve seen earlier – definitely feels like it’s coming from someone who’s got no experience with being on the receiving end of bigotry or misogyny. Easy to be a bit more understanding and accepting of Nazis when you wouldn’t be one of the first people they’d shove in a camp.
Edit: and I’m saying this as an avowed lover of hugboxes of various kinds. “Cute but will fight”
Not everyone has the luxury of knowing no one who has been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere. A person not having anyone who has partially or fully adopted fascist ideology in their life is not something to brag about. Nor should that be the goal.
People have families. People have childhood friends they’ve known their whole lives. People have classmates with the same or similar schedule as them. People have adult friends in their social circles. People have co-workers at their jobs. People cannot control the political ideology of the people around them. If someone is informed enough to know exactly who in their life is currently a fascist and can disassociate exactly from those people then good for them. The majority of people will not be able to do that. Nor will doing that solve the problem.
When the response to this
is this
That’s a purity test. Your argument is to sort ourselves by political ideology.
I am a Jewish, atheist, social democrat, lesbian, trans woman. I’m white and pre-transition, so I get to benefit from white male privilege for now. But if the fascists could put me in a death camp they would.
If a person is in danger from someone in their life and can dissociate from that person, then by all means dissociate from them.
The way to defeat fascism is to defeat the ideas that make up the political ideology. Isolating ourselves does nothing to forward this goal.
You’re still missing the point here. I never said I keep tabs on everyone at all times just so I can pull the eject handle if they turn Nazi, just that if it does turn out somehow that someone is a Nazi, that is when I pull the eject handle.
In any case, my argument absolutely is that I’m going to sort my friends by political ideology – and no, I don’t give people forms to fill out or install cameras in their homes. Doesn’t mean everyone has to think exactly like me, but “no Nazis” doesn’t feel like it should be a high bar. Sure, maybe this does nothing to help solve the situation but I have no interest in having to be buddies with them, let alone loving them – better people are welcome to it, but I’m done, I’d jump off a cliff if I had to listen to yet another “rational” fascist wannabe explain why my whole gender is inferior to his and then dismiss me when I get ANGY. Call it purity testing all you want, but for me and I suspect a lot of people this is self care
Not everyone in that scenario will be able to pull the ejection handle. A person cannot be expected to quit their job if they realize a co-worker is a fascist. And even if everyone could it would not solve fascism.
Pulling fascists out of their echo chambers and information silos is a job. It’s a slow, linear process, where one person is helped at a time, that is outpaced by the efficiency of the righ-wing infosphere. The fascists in people’s lives do in fact need love. It is unreasonable to expect everyone to do that. People should consider their own safety. What is reasonable is that we acknowledge the few solutions that we have. If a person has fascists in their life, has the know-how, and is willing to put in that work to help them then that is a good thing. edit: typo
Hey, sorry to necro-post. But now it’s just you and me and all the internet tough guys have left. I appreciate your point of view and I am curious about something you said.
How can the “political ideology” of fascism every “be defeated”? Even accepting that you can “defeat” an ideology, and that fascism is even meaningfully thought of as an ideology at all (which I don’t think is a helpful lens), fascism works, and it works because of elements of human psychology that we can’t simply get rid of. People will always be able to enlist the support of others by throwing vulnerable people under the bus. How is that an ideology that can be defeated? Surely we have to address the conditions that allow human psychology to be exploited in such a way, to help people empower themselves and not feel the fear that makes hatred appealing in the first place.
Fascism is a collective puzzle that has to be solved collectively. Humans are not necessarily predisposed to fail or succeed this puzzle. Fascism takes advantage of human tribalism, but any person is still capable of rationalizing that fascism is not in either their self-interest or a larger collective self-interest. Fascism is self-destructive.
Fascists have to make good on their promise to eliminate the out-groups they demonize. In order to stay in power, the fascists have to keep dividing a country’s population into new in-groups and out-groups. The subjective hierarchies they construct and adhere to are based on unattainable ideals. If this process is not stopped externally, the fascists eventually have to kill everyone. This includes the fascists drinking the flavor-aid.
The only way for humanity to survive fascism is to educate ourselves and each other about these self-destructive ideologies. That everyone is imperfect and everyone deserves to live no matter where they fall on subject hierarchies. Anyone who is seriously considering fascism as means of self-preservation can conclude that this ideology will lead to their own destruction and the destruction of the people they care about. Fascism logically contradicts it’s own false promises of security and prosperity. Once people understand this, people will then be open to other ideologies to solve their problems that do not involve demonizing groups of people.
People of course have to be given complete information as part of their education on fascism and other self-destructive ideologies. If all a person gets is fascist propaganda, as is happening in the US, then it shouldn’t be surprising when people stuck in echo chambers become fascists.
Ideologies can work as far as convincing people to adopt the ideology. However fascism does not work as far as solving the economic problems that drive people to look for solutions in the first place. No amount of genocide of a society’s existing population improves a person’s material conditions in that society. That kind of genocide is likely to eventually destabilize the society that is committing the genocide. The human psychology that can make us all susceptible to fascism does not prevent us from seeing it for what it is, inherently self-destructive. The human population destroys itself as part of implementing fascism.
There will always be con artists that try to demonize people to get what they want. But if people know that not no amount of demonizing can put food on the table or keep people safe they aren’t going to fall for it.
Not to blow you off, but maybe create a new post to continue this discussion and send me a link if you want my thoughts specifically. This post’s comment section got glowy.
You seem to be absolving them of any responsibility here. Brainwashing isn’t magical, they have simply been convinced to be evil.
Responsibility implies action. The majority of people in our country who have been brainwashed by the right-wing infosphere haven’t done anything. If people are physically attacked by someone, they should defend themselves. But thinking fascist thoughts isn’t a violation of the social contract of tolerance.
Thinking them may not be (although only because I believe in absolute freedom of thought). But voting for them certainly is!
Many of them don’t realize what they are voting for. Even if a person could identify the people who knowingly vote for fascism this information does us no good. Acting preemptively on that information subverts what’s left of our democracy, which is still our most effective tool against fascism. Engaging in that kind of political violence makes it harder to resit fascism. Acting retroactively on that information is an exercise in revenge which does nothing to resist fascism. Violence doesn’t inherently make a person a fascist, but it is our least effective tool.
If they don’t realize who they’re voting for then why are they voting?
Acting on who someone votes for is not preemptive, and revenge does a good amount to resist fascism. We’ve seen what happens when people roll over and do nothing, and look where we are now?
They think they are voting in their own self-interest because they’ve been lied to.
edit in response to the above comment’s edit: I’m responding to this in a later comment.
Anyone who cannot see the obvious lies of the GOP is so dumb that I don’t mind lumping them in with all the people who vote red for other reasons.
The bottom line is, I refuse to absolve these people of any responsibility. They refuse to take responsibility for their ignorance, their hatred, and/or their glee at other people’s suffering. If you exercise the power to vote, that comes with the responsibility of educating yourself about what you’re voting on. Anything else is an incredible abuse of power. If you want to stay in your own little bubble and ignore the outside world, then you don’t get to subject the rest of us to your vote. These people are hurting us. Removing education opportunities. Killing public transport. Enabling corruption. Appointing phony judges. Polluting the planet. Stealing from us. Literally killing us. I refuse to let that slide.
Information silos aren’t an intelligence test. Anyone who has only false information will come to incorrect conclusions.
Whether a person should be held to account for their voting is a moot point as acting on the information presents the same issues I raised in my argument earlier. I believe people should not be held to account for their vote. If all the fascists did was vote we would be in no danger. I take issue with fascists who will do more violent things than just vote.
The problem is the people who are brainwashed do not know this. People are trapped in information silos via their ignorance. That’s how information silos work.
https://www.cfr.org/blog/2020-election-numbers
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/study-white-americans-alt-right-racism-white-nationalists
The study is from 2018 but I think it’s still relevant even when taking account everything that’s happened since Jan 6th. The total number of self-identifying fascists in the worst case scenario could not currently exceed 11 million Americans. Even in the worst case scenario, the total number of self-identifying fascists is small compared to the US population, which is somewhere between 330 to 340 million people. The total number of self-identifying fascists, is probably at most only a few million people, maybe fewer. The right-wing infosphere’s ability to garner tens of millions of votes, despite spreading the ideas held by a small fraction of the population, is what makes it so dangerous. That’s why spreading true information is so important.
Condemning everyone who voted Trump to political violence is self-defeating. With that strategy we are effectively creating tens of millions of enemies.
edit: This is in response to the above comment’s edit. Political violence is preemptive if it’s done before a fascist takeover and it’s revenge if done after a fascist takeover. If the fascists takeover has already been completed then the revenge isn’t about resisting it. Political violence will not deter fascists. We already know capital punishment doesn’t deter violent crime.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/