I think the issue is that the “new” usage of “they” is seen as different, or incorrect, when that’s simply not the case. The strict usage of “they” as only a plural pronoun is not “correct.” It’s revisionist. Historically, “they” has been used as both a singular and plural pronoun, and it can be found in conversation and literature going back hundreds of years. At some point, we revised that they should be only plural, and that’s why it feels like things are changing in our current lifetimes. We aren’t changing how the word is used, we’re going back to how it’s been used for centuries.
Language is not a set of rules and strictures. It’s fluid, and the way people use words becomes grammatically correct. If these things could not change, then language couldn’t exist. You can feel uncomfortable that language has changed from what you’ve known, but don’t hold it back, or complain about the next generation. Language will change in their lifetimes too. Overall, it’s a good thing and pushes us to understand each other in the manner appropriate for the times. Right now, an easily recognizable and commonly accepted gender neutral, singular pronoun is more valuable to language than a strict usage or a new word for the use case.
“They left their bag.” “They went that way.” “I’ll find them later.”
All these examples could refer to either singular or plural cases, and maybe that confuses some people, but I think it’s very simple to determine with even the barest bit of context. It’s better than defaulting to “he” for any unspecified gender, as was “correct” for the last few decades, and allows for non-binary people to be referred to without needing oft-criticized neo-pronouns.
Using “he” as the default singular 3rd-person pronoun goes back centuries, not decades. It was sexist to varying degrees, but never all that close to truly gender-neutral since modern English itself goes back only so far as times that have been pretty close to maximally sexist. But you can see it plainly in the King James Version of the Bible for example. You won’t find any singular “they” there in the sort of places where its use today is novel. There are of course plenty of places where its use is not novel at all.
The late 20th-century innovation was to write out “he or she” in the many places where it seemed necessary, because we didn’t have any single word that would fit. Using “they” to refer to “someone”, “anyone”, or other referents like that was perfectly normal as it has always been. The examples you provide are most naturally thought of in that way and would not spook the old people today. Using “they” to refer to “a student” or some other specified but unnamed individual would on the other hand often seem wrong to people just 30 years ago, but one might sometimes get away with it depending on the audience and the grammatical circumstances. Using “they” to refer to “Jason” or other such specifically known and named people in general was not done, never had been done except perhaps by the occasional poet from centuries past, and everyone would just wonder who you were talking about even if they’d been named earlier in the same sentence. Calling Jason a “she” would also seem odd, but not nearly as odd as calling them a “they”; and if what I’ve read is at all representative then roughly similar logic would’ve usually applied in centuries going back to fairly near the start of modern English.
As may still come in handy on occasion, that short-lived move towards using the hideously awkward phrase “he or she” gave many of us plenty of practice in simply avoiding all phrases that call for a gender-neutral 3rd-person pronoun. Whatever else might be said about it, being able to use “they” is certainly an improvement over that situation.
I happened to read your last reply before it was deleted, and I have to give you props for disagreeing respectfully. I don’t see nuanced debates online often, and I’d much rather have a respectful discussion where we don’t see eye to eye. Have a good one, you seem dope.
Ah well, sorry about that; I felt I didn’t express myself well in that last one but I stand by the part where I don’t think we disagree on anything too substantial basically. Thanks for the reply, see you around.
Expressed well or not, you didn’t use any logical fallacies or resort to ad hominem attacks. I could disagree on every point and still enjoy the discussion just for the sake of respectful debate. Hope to run into you again.
I don’t disagree that he has been a correct singular pronoun for unspecified individuals going back centuries, just that they wasn’t. They has been used just as legitimately as a singular pronoun going back as far as it’s been in common use. I think especially in such places as it’s convenient to the writer to assume the one being referred to is male, he took prevalence. However, I would strongly disagree that he was objectively correct over they in historical contexts, rather that either could be used depending on the author, their instruction, biases, and intentions. Otherwise I agree, and they is certainly better than “he or she.”
I think the issue is that the “new” usage of “they” is seen as different, or incorrect, when that’s simply not the case. The strict usage of “they” as only a plural pronoun is not “correct.” It’s revisionist. Historically, “they” has been used as both a singular and plural pronoun, and it can be found in conversation and literature going back hundreds of years. At some point, we revised that they should be only plural, and that’s why it feels like things are changing in our current lifetimes. We aren’t changing how the word is used, we’re going back to how it’s been used for centuries.
Language is not a set of rules and strictures. It’s fluid, and the way people use words becomes grammatically correct. If these things could not change, then language couldn’t exist. You can feel uncomfortable that language has changed from what you’ve known, but don’t hold it back, or complain about the next generation. Language will change in their lifetimes too. Overall, it’s a good thing and pushes us to understand each other in the manner appropriate for the times. Right now, an easily recognizable and commonly accepted gender neutral, singular pronoun is more valuable to language than a strict usage or a new word for the use case.
“They left their bag.” “They went that way.” “I’ll find them later.”
All these examples could refer to either singular or plural cases, and maybe that confuses some people, but I think it’s very simple to determine with even the barest bit of context. It’s better than defaulting to “he” for any unspecified gender, as was “correct” for the last few decades, and allows for non-binary people to be referred to without needing oft-criticized neo-pronouns.
TLDR: Times change. We need to get with it.
Using “he” as the default singular 3rd-person pronoun goes back centuries, not decades. It was sexist to varying degrees, but never all that close to truly gender-neutral since modern English itself goes back only so far as times that have been pretty close to maximally sexist. But you can see it plainly in the King James Version of the Bible for example. You won’t find any singular “they” there in the sort of places where its use today is novel. There are of course plenty of places where its use is not novel at all.
The late 20th-century innovation was to write out “he or she” in the many places where it seemed necessary, because we didn’t have any single word that would fit. Using “they” to refer to “someone”, “anyone”, or other referents like that was perfectly normal as it has always been. The examples you provide are most naturally thought of in that way and would not spook the old people today. Using “they” to refer to “a student” or some other specified but unnamed individual would on the other hand often seem wrong to people just 30 years ago, but one might sometimes get away with it depending on the audience and the grammatical circumstances. Using “they” to refer to “Jason” or other such specifically known and named people in general was not done, never had been done except perhaps by the occasional poet from centuries past, and everyone would just wonder who you were talking about even if they’d been named earlier in the same sentence. Calling Jason a “she” would also seem odd, but not nearly as odd as calling them a “they”; and if what I’ve read is at all representative then roughly similar logic would’ve usually applied in centuries going back to fairly near the start of modern English.
As may still come in handy on occasion, that short-lived move towards using the hideously awkward phrase “he or she” gave many of us plenty of practice in simply avoiding all phrases that call for a gender-neutral 3rd-person pronoun. Whatever else might be said about it, being able to use “they” is certainly an improvement over that situation.
I happened to read your last reply before it was deleted, and I have to give you props for disagreeing respectfully. I don’t see nuanced debates online often, and I’d much rather have a respectful discussion where we don’t see eye to eye. Have a good one, you seem dope.
Ah well, sorry about that; I felt I didn’t express myself well in that last one but I stand by the part where I don’t think we disagree on anything too substantial basically. Thanks for the reply, see you around.
Expressed well or not, you didn’t use any logical fallacies or resort to ad hominem attacks. I could disagree on every point and still enjoy the discussion just for the sake of respectful debate. Hope to run into you again.
I don’t disagree that he has been a correct singular pronoun for unspecified individuals going back centuries, just that they wasn’t. They has been used just as legitimately as a singular pronoun going back as far as it’s been in common use. I think especially in such places as it’s convenient to the writer to assume the one being referred to is male, he took prevalence. However, I would strongly disagree that he was objectively correct over they in historical contexts, rather that either could be used depending on the author, their instruction, biases, and intentions. Otherwise I agree, and they is certainly better than “he or she.”
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